Creative Leadership, becoming a creative leader – How to Develop the Traits of a Successful Leader

Discover the journey that we've been on – transitioning from being team members to a leadership position.

What have been the pain points, and how have we overcome that?
What traits do leaders exhibit?
Our top tips on becoming a leader and how to improve your leadership in a creative field (also general).
Find out what we choose as our leadership tactics and what's essential when leading a team.

How can you build rapport and trust with a team?
What's leading by example mean?
How to be an effective communicator?
What is emotional intelligence and how to apply this in team management?


All this, plus UX Tombola – what will it be – how will Mark Steeler sell this one?

All these questions, and even ones you didn't want to know, ANSWERED!

Plus the off-topic tangents you love.💎 Sign up for exclusive content: https://jubb.ly/ba4a52

🎥 Watch: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4bV3uVwN3UqQeh8B9N8-xg

#Podcast #Design #Leadership #Creative  Leadership #Management #TopTips #UX #UI

PEACE!

Produced by:
Paul Wilshaw
Nick Tomlinson
Mark Sutcliffe
James Medd
Anthony Jones
Chris Sutcliffe

Title music: James Medd
Sound effects from https://www.zapsplat.com

Transcript

0:00

No, no norms of society. Yeah, no schools have not adopted flexitime.

Just drop your kids off at 4: 0:13

00 PM. Go on, teach them.

Mark: 0:22

Yeah. So the mark dealer products that basically making the teachers live at the school before our roles. Well, that's, that's a concern. If you've got teachers can have on any kind of like weird sleep cartons, they'd be all right. Cause they could just do shifts whenever they felt like. Oh, I'm sure there's some kind of bizarre, uh, equilibrium you could fixed itself.

Paul: 0:47

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. There you go. That's a free UX. That's off of the show. We started, I find the old adage that, that did you, did you, when you were in school, like I've talking, uh, free school, um, nursery reception, uh, and primary school believes that your teachers live in the, in the school. Common idea.

Nick: 1:16

Uh, I don't think I was ever that naive even as a young and I'm not sure I was. I remember, I remember once my teacher told me they didn't have a television. Um, my innocent, like seven year old question, my mind, um, I just thought there would be a gap in the living room where the TV was supposed to just a bright, bright space.

Mark: 1:44

Yeah, I guess it's the wall. It just didn't quite compute the name of someone who could probably live without a TV. Um, uh, I, I finally understand this person if I don't even remember the fast, sorry, Sarah Martin. I, I feel you get inside. They could wheel the TVs. They had it in the school into where all they slept. I mean, that would be one of the benefits of living in school. Wouldn't it? It's being able to wheel. That, what that music is. Yeah. Just the TV used to play. I don't know. The first 15 minutes of the Shawshank redemption on repeat in French. Uh, well, yeah, some of my favorite lessons were kind of wait and half the lesson for them to work out that they've got the wrong remote key.

Paul: 2:44

They've got their key, so unlock it. And then they've run some data recorded over the whatever episode they were going to show with last night. It's Coronation Street for. So instead of something only really gets in the British educational Institute. Yeah. I don't know. I can imagine that standardized. Anyway, she rolled the tiles. Yes. Go on. Not yet. Here we go, uh, on welcome to faster horses. I'm one of your hosts, Paul Wilshaw I've led design and development teams of Barclays and other well-known brands will lots of awards and a few hackathons. Um, Nick Tomlinson, I'm a digital illustrator lead UX designer, Manchester best investment group. And I'm mark Simplifi lead UX designer in the digital automation sphere coming up, we'll be talking about design user experience and technology followed by UX. Tombola where we pick apart the experience of a random product objects, service floor, place, and a special advert from mark stealer through Baltimore Cade Ella. Thank you. I went to show. If you want to be part of the show, you can send us questions on Twitter with the hashtag faster horses podcast. Now onto the show. Now the intro is out of the way, welcome to the second half of the show. Yeah. You know what? That's just reminded me. Um, but uh, I work, uh, discovered we've got this thing called bolt-on services and sweat marks from. But the, the way, uh, the design day, it looks really lie. And then they just could not get past Bolton services and no one can get past bolt and service road stops that One of our security products. So every time, sorry, I just, I just like, I was sort of like Chrissy wh Smith, the bad challenge. Cattle have a little shit that now FinTech. Yeah. Bolt-on services, Volta. Emphasis of that sounds so strange to me. Cause if you pronounceable Bolton, so bolt. Just so insight, you've got your emphasis wrong. It sounds like, it sounds like you're out of town. Cousins have come to visit here. Where are we going? Daddy? I've never heard or seen bolt on before. It sounds beautiful. And there's just a hard come by with a wailing scream, a very fundable. Um, from there you can make these jokes. Excuse. Well, you say I'm from Halifax and along. It's on the same level. So Is it slide the sun and dress faults. And that would explain a lot to it. Yeah. So, um, Bolton services from if apology, we get calls past. So if anyone's still listening whilst it's not the UX video games, part three and my elder ring playing a little bit less, not immediately, it starts off when I hit the 60 hour mark in my current character, I thought attack a little break. I did, like, I don't know if it's possible over a weekend, but I remember when I did like some ridiculous number of hours on red dead when it first came out between Friday and Monday, I played that for literally like two days solid. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the, uh, this elder scrolls online and I of the 48 hours, the better it was available. I placed 38 of them, 10 a month. It was down for men. And then the funny thing is though, I never did went on to, to, to play the game once it come out, come out. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. Sicky, sicky feeling in the stomach though. When you think about going back on it again, it's just not going to be the same. It's not going to quite capture the same exclusivity. Um, yeah, but no, no, that's, that's not our topic today. Today. We're going to be talking about leadership in New York. Cool leadership simply. Nice, indeed. Nice. Uh, and, um, and since I've been a work for literally, um, 27 minutes, just someone else want to introduce this topic just for a second. Definitely. So creative leadership, I can, I think this is, this is quite nice topic because you, you, to kind of, um, not, not long into managing people now and then going from kinda like a, a med to kind of like a leadership role. And I, yeah, I wondered if we could share some insights of what that journey is like, and, and I know kind of like, I get questions and kind of like, you know, kind of, um, what is leadership and stuff like that. And people. Always come up with five questions and I'll, I wonder if we should do an exercise, let's do a little exercise straight off the bar. And if you, uh, one word to describe creative leadership, Nick, on the spot important. I do that thing I do. Where before we start talking about it, I, to like, be very pedantic about the actual question that you've asked. So you've, you've included the word creative is the word creative, like important to the question and the answer, because when you talk about UX, some aspects of UX, um, creative and some are, and some aren't some aspects of light management could be on creative. Like how important is that particular word in the question? Am I asking. Well, let me, so well, it just adjust what I'm, I'm kind of like, ah, so is important and it's easy if you're a leader in a creative role, like UX, design, branding, um, anything like that? I think it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be, yeah. Okay. Right. I understand the question. So what did I say? And Paul and important. That's my one word, then I'll stick with that. Okay, cool. I have to choose if I was to choose one word, I'd probably go with, um, Empowering or something like that. Um, I've been thinking a lot about it and this might just be because of my lazy self, but I tend to engender as much autonomy as possible within the team. Um, and to the part where I have a team of about seven people, um, you know, uh, reporting to me, I'm part of a leadership team with the three of us and as a boat, including ourselves, but T 22, 23, maybe 24 now and the team, uh, cause it's continuing to grow. Um, and I think when you get to a stage like that, you have to have an autonomous team. But I think when you're in a creative industry as well, You know, I, I remember, I think I've had opportunities to say it before, but I remember when I was a graphic designer and one of the quotes that I phoned was, you know, I'm not a tool to realize your shitty ideas. Um, and essentially I think if you introduce any, any level of micromanagement, that's essentially what you reduce your creative team to. And no matter whether you yourself are a very creative individual, You are not going to have the creative power of 17 people, 24, 44 points. So you, you know, you've got to let these people, in fact, it's your job to usually make sure everyone else is giving them the space they need and making sure they have the tools they need the empowerment as it were to just do the job and to realize that their version of the vision, if you will. Um, so yeah, that would be my one word or I did my stress into paragraphs. That's good. I I'd go with, uh, I was thinking about that. I go with empathy, um, and kind of late. Yeah, not everybody's on the same page, not everybody's got kind of like the same, you know, standards of living not, everybody's got kind of like, you know, all the access to stuff and it's having that empathy too. And I'm going to bundle in listening to people and like getting people's ideas and other, and you know, kind of really understanding why people, you know, kind of our work and what they want to work on. How they want to work is, is really key for me, for, for any kind of like leadership, uh, as something that empathy. And thank you kind of, um, when I was working with each year and I kind of like said, you know what? I think care where everybody works. I don't care what hours people work. I care. All I care about is people are passionate to do a job. Yeah, whether that's, if there, as we were talking about sleep patterns and stuff like that, if the most creative put up point per day is 3:00 AM. Why, why should we force somebody to work at 3:00 PM? Anyway, if you get that, I can have empathy, right? You get, you get naturally get kind of a high performing team. I find, uh, because you know, you get that trust and you get that, you know, there's nothing worse than working in a team where you kind of start questioning your own actions and whether you're doing the right thing and you can apply them. You, you put your effort into validating your own role over delivering something. And I suppose that that's where I can say think creatively to ship as a little bit different than other leadership. Because the broad range, as we've talked about many times the broad range of what we do, you know, it's not just, you know, design a pre mobile first screen, just, uh, you know, it's, it's all the things around it. And you know, that, that is the, the tip of the iceberg and all the other stuff that's going in, you know, the research, the kind of findings, the insights, but kind of aligning with the business goals, how people are going to sell it. How are you going to market the shit out of it? The SEO of it, stuff like that. You know, the design is just like the pinnacle of, of what I'm walking out put is. Um, which is, you know, kind of like, and, and if people just want to hone that top thing, then cool. You know, but you've got to think as well about all the foundations that go into building that. I think that's one of the fundamental points here. Isn't it is when you, when you go into a management position at this level, you're not only managing people. In fact, you could probably argue that you're not necessarily managing people at all. That's not necessarily the bulk of the job, um, because you have to start managing the processes. And it's more about, um, putting things in place. As I said, that allow people to just do the work, um, let smooth daily delivery. And then, uh, you know, your, your, your shift from that micro day-to-day delivery, as you go further up the food chain, if you will, um, and you become more strategic. And you become more macro and you taking a bird's eye view of the out-calls creative output of your team. Um, and instead of just looking at the design, you're looking at the wider impact, wider package as it were. Um, and, and you get to essentially, you get to look at the Hayward Y um, of that delivery of a, just, just getting it done. Um, and I think that that is a very different skill set to a very different, but certainly, certainly lots of overlap, but, um, quite a different skill set to when you're just in the thick of it in a sprint team, perhaps the delivering screen layouts or iterating on a component design, um, Because you as a lead, you might be conferring with a product owner on how to actually get that resourced in the first place and your team. And that, that is where that's the tasks that you have to do. That's pretty unseemly sometimes that you do so that your team doesn't have to so that your, your creative team can actually spend the time being creative. Instead. I think you nailed it. When you said you don't actually end up managing them that much like a good manager. It just kind of clicked in my head, a good manager. I think like managers, their people as little as possible, but actually probably ends up managing everyone else in the business, like so that those people don't become a problem for your people that you manage. So like you manage, you manage it because they're not, they're not helping your team members achieve what they need to achieve. Like the lockouts of the dollar sign up, something's blocked, something needs acquire it and you need to. Monitor that conversation and step in sometimes and just be like, look fucking, just fix the problem. Thank you for giving us feeding back and giving us the information, but just please go and fix it. And the person on your team might not want to, or feel empowered enough to do that themselves. So you need to manage people for them, or you need to, you need to like insulate and from bullshit and bullshit and conversations come in from above and like where I'm very, I'm very big on like, if there's a conversation going on somewhere, um, and some things up in the air, the a lot of people feel like, oh, we shouldn't tell the, ah, the people were managing about that now because it might change. But I think you'd need to tell them that this conversation is going on and it might change, but you need to also. Differentiate between like what's useful and what's not at that point. And sometimes that might look like that might look like you're not giving, you're not telling them things. That's quite a difficult thing to balance. But yeah, I think if you're another thing, like a massive one, and this is a lot of my opinions on being a manager come from, like the route I've taken to get here and the managers I've had, or not up until this point. And like, I've seen a lot, I've seen a lot of how it's not done. And I, I strive to be like, not like these people and hopefully, you know, phlegm achieving that at the moment, but I've learned a lot about how not to do things and, and what you have to do. Particularly, if you're responsible for the higher in needs, let the person you have hired to do the job, do their job. That is, I think probably the most important thing, which is what mark said. Like you, you, you create a space for them to operate in a new, empower them to do that. And, and by, and to do that, you need to be off like managing other people, stopping people, overstepping their roles, stepping into the role of light, your team, your UX designers, or UX researchers. If you've got an, uh, making sure that they understand that. What your team's role is at the, how would they go about doing that, doing that, setting up the processes and helping the people involved in those processes, understand what their role is, what their role is and what your team's role is and where the overlap is. And isn't, and just allowing a lot of it as well is like allowing your team to make some mistakes, to learn from. And, you know, it's easy to look at like a design or look at a job when you're, when you talk. And when you introduce a new team to a job, it's easy to be like very prescriptive and be like, this is what I think we need. This is what I think we should do. These are the components I think we need. This is how I think you should look like this is, these are the colors I think we should use, but you need to allow them to like the time permitting, figure out a lot of that stuff themselves, what works and what doesn't work. And again, that takes a lot of trust in the people that you've hired. I think, and a lot of like self restraint as well. It's not that fucking step in the num the number one thing I've learned about having lots of resource is like using it rather than just being like, oh, I don't worry about it. I'll do it. Like, I'll do everything. You just, you just like tinker around in the background, I think. And, and that's bad management as well because having too much work is just as bad as not having any, I think you sat around twiddling your thumbs. It's incredibly frustrating. So you need to seek that balance. But I think what I'm trying to do as a manager is like, if something goes wrong, Come to me and I'll fix it. However, I will be doing my very best to make sure in the background that these things don't go wrong in the first place. If anything gets punched in there, let me know. That's kind of what I try to do. Really. I think it's interesting because back in my naive view, I, I always thought, you know, kind of line managers look at it like this, and that's why I wanted to go and want someone to be alive. I always thought the real, the bottom, and you were doing all the hit jobs and stuff like that, but really as a good manager and a leader, I think that's when the really shitty jobs got me a lot. And I think if, if anyone wants to be a lead or not deal with. Really sticky, really horrible jobs, then that's not the right career path for, and similarly as well, if you want to be a manager and all you're interested in doing is telling people what to do.

Nick: 24:14

You have to say English should not be a manager. Certainly. Well, it's interesting against if you can find the more you get into a leadership person, a position, when you get into a leadership,

Mark: 24:34

the more you get into a leadership position. Um, The further away from the design, you can end up getting, because you ha you, you know, that's the bit that you have to delicate. That's the bit that your resources dedicated to that part of the daily daily delivery. And as you said, that leaves you with the shit shield. If that's what you are essentially. Um, well, that's part and parcel of it. And yeah, the, one of the really shittiest jobs that I think comes from management in UX, especially is convincing the rest of the business. Why they're hired you. Why, why you've got a team of 24, 25 people and why that's nowhere near enough or your organization, um, 'cause uh, and we've touched on this kind of stuff as well. There's certain things in UX that don't have the most immediate payoff. That's certainly not as easily described through return on investment. Um, so you really do have to do a good job of selling your profession to the people who are already spending the money on it. Um, and that can, that can go well, I certainly experienced it. Go both ways. If you're in a, in a very kind of UX immature environment, then that's going to be the bulk of your day. Um, and the reward for that is if you do it well, eventually you end up as a user centered company and people will be asking you where the UX is rather than what it is. Um, and, and they'll naturally be on board, but it does take a long time to get to that point.

Paul: 26:12

Yeah, definitely. Nick, you said right at the top, uh, important. And now was just wanting to dig into that a little bit more. Like what I mean by important. Why do you mean by important? Yeah. So I think you touched on it a little bit earlier. Yeah. So like, I don't want to, creative management is important. So you need, if you're on a team, you need a good manager. And I think, I think good. I think I can probably try to quantify like what, what I think good means or what good should mean, which is, is that you, are you there to support them? You're there to help them progress in their career. And I don't think that that limits you to like the company that you work in. If your dream is to work with me, first of all, you poor thing second, but the second not so you, you, yeah, you should. So I'm only ever interested in hiring someone who I'm terrified of and who could, who could take my job, because if I'm, if I'm not looking for someone that good, like I'm wasting my time. So I think I should, as a manager, I should offer you all the opportunities to develop yourself, to realize whatever it is that you want to do. Not what you want, not what you can do for this business. Like while we have you, we should be, we should be reaping the benefits of your skills and your abilities. Um, but we should be offering you. All the chances in the world to get better at what you do, whether that's from learning from me, which, you know, a certain point will, will reach its limit or like offering you, offering you training or offering you access to other areas of the business, like the, the SEO team or the GA team and learning from them. And then at the same time, the business has to be responsible for retaining you through like the culture, the benefits, the pair, the job progression, like the work that they're doing. I think it's, I think if you're offering all those things to someone and their, their career is, um, like dependent, it's very dependent on what someone wants from their career, but if they want to progress through, um, the role that they've got through the logical steps from my senior lead head off. Offer them the opportunities to do that. If they don't want to stay in the company and do, and do those things for you, there's probably something wrong somewhere. If you can affect that as a manager, that's, that's, that's the role, that's part of the role. So it's important. Important is that is the word that, uh, that you, you are, you are managing the people in your team for their benefit. Um, and you're managing everyone else in the business to make sure that they don't interfere with your team. I think, and that includes monitoring to make sure they've got enough work monitoring to make sure they haven't got too much work. Listening, not always trying to assault, fix problems for them, I think is, is something I've learned very recently. Actually, sometimes you just need to listen. Like sometimes people just want to vent and I think that's, um, that's a, that's a big thing that, uh, not a lot of people realize or do like if someone, if I, I do this quite a lot, actually I come to people and adjust complaint. And when someone offers, someone offers like an explanation or a solution, I get even more annoyed because I'm not, I'm not telling you because I can't fix it. I'm telling you because this is a stupid situation. I want you to nod your head and go, yes, it's stupid. Isn't it? That's all. I'm, that's all I'm after. And then I'll go away. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That is exactly it. Like I'm not, I'm not the, I'm not the. Crazy person in the room. Mama, could've been the only person who's noticed this and all I need is just for someone to go. Yeah, that's weird. And I can go right. To go fix it now because I've, I've ascertained that I'm not a crazy person. And that is, um, yeah. And I think having a manager who could do all of that, but at the same time is incredibly important because if you've got a manager who doesn't care, you're not going to stick around. If you've got a manager who's micromanaging. Yeah. And, and almost cares too much or cares about the wrong things, which is like, this person is on my team and it's made you tell this person what to do. That's bad. So it's important that you don't do that. Whether someone, I think whether someone stares in the business or stairs as little time as possible and goes on to the next role can come down a lot to the person who is directly above them, um, and managing them because I've left a lot of roles where it's become clear that the business has no has no interest in listening to me or, or my manager. And if it, if it looked like my manager was making progress, always bought or was like visibly bothered by the fact that they couldn't make progress, um, might have stayed. Um, and it's difficult. It's difficult to say that because I've had a lot. Terrible managers. And I've worked in terrible places and about like amazing managers and I've worked in terrible places and I've, but I've left them all on. So it's difficult to say. It's difficult to say whether if, whether that person could have made mistake or not, to be honest, I think, I think a certain point you work is you can only do so much in that needs sorts of the business to like create this culture and create an and you know, and listen to the people that are in your team, but you've got to be able to do as much as possible. And just to say me as a manager, if someone came to me and said, um, you know, like thank you for everything, but I'm thinking of leaving and going somewhere else. I wouldn't say that personally at all, because if we could, if the business could keep. The wood and if they can't, then you absolutely should go somewhere else. And I think that is that's important too, to not tick or the people's choices personally. Uh yeah. Cause I, I suppose as a, as a manager and leader can lie when, when those person, when those people leave it's it can be a bit soul-destroying especially Keller, you know, but this has never, I agree by, I totally agree that it's the, it, it's probably not kind of like something you should take personally. So because it's something failing somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's not you. I mean, people will, people will leave teams because they've got bad managers. I didn't leave. My job because you were about butter. I can eat. I can, I can say that. Just making a note, there's taken 36 minutes and 47 before you mentioned that part. So no, and by the way, none of this is to get any praise or just really? Yeah. So, so I, so I, I have to, I have to clarify before I say this, that this I, this is the first time that I've been responsible for hiring directly line managing someone unlike, and also like, like managing in terms of like leading a project. So in previous roles, I've managed people. Yeah, but I wasn't their manager, so it wasn't their line manager and they could, you know, probably wouldn't have gone that well, but they could probably tell me to fuck off if they wanted, but I was like, but I was leading, you know, like I was given a piece of work and they had a bit of resource as if, to say like, please, can you do this for me? But I wasn't the manager, but we're in a position where we've been able to like hire people. I've been able to make a choice with the other leads. And like obviously the, the head of UX where I could pick someone based on. My interview with them and what I learned about that person. And like, I was able to make a decision and say, yeah, this person would be able to do this job, even though they haven't done this job before I've looked at the CV, I've spoken to them, I've asked them questions. And I think based on my experience and my ability that they can do this job. So we've given some people the opportunity to do this job, like one person has come from, um, customer services and there should such an understanding of like customer need and user need and empathy for. Customers and users that we offered them a job, being a UX designer have indoor experience in like design or UX since. And it turned out that that was the best decision that, you know, we might've ever met. Um, and similarly for like the other people on the team, I've got a bit of a background in design or, or whatever, but I've never been, never had the title of UX designer before. Um, we've given them the chance to be a UX designer. And again, like best decision I've ever met. If those people come on board to my team with no experience of being the UX designer staff for two years and learned so much that they get offered the job as a UX designer at Google. I will take that as a person to win. That's a victory for sure. Yeah, because you saw yeah, I think, and it comes to the point then where it's like, I've done so well as a manager that this person has been offered a Google, a job at Google, right. It's now out to the business to like match or exceed that offer. Not up to me. I've done, I've done everything I can and everything I was expected to do and everything I wanted to do. I've upskilled this person, it's now up to you to retain them. And if you can't do that, let this person go and become like. The next may really interesting going that. Cause I think, yeah, and it is so gratifying, you know, cause I've managed quite a few apprentices they're, you know, they're, they're running their own companies now kind of heads of departments and things like that. And light is so nice to see them doing well. Um, but you know, at the same time bustards give us a nice job as well. Yes. That's the thing in it. Like you never know where these, these people end up and obviously I'm not, I'm not like cultivate in people who can go off and give me a better job. That's not, if that's genuinely, it's not even in my head until you've just said it now, you never, you never know. They might go off and be the head of UX at Google them. And then one day before. So that's another reason to be a good manager. Hmm. Yeah. True. It is true. True, true. Uh, the main, the main, sometimes some, maybe the ends justify the means sometimes even if it is, even if you're doing it for the more selfish reasons possible, if that person ends up having a great life because of yourself selfish dishes then is that, is that a bucket welcome to philosophy out. They're ultimately going to come out the jumper, but yeah, I totally agree. Interesting. I, um, I've been building out a, an accessibility tool kit for the business and I thought I'd like to look at sidebar. I'd like to look at that. If you don't know, it's, it's a lot of status, but, uh, it's, it's an hour until SharePoint, but, uh, um, And I've been building that and I kind of wanted to put it and I thought, where, where should I put it? Uh, and I actually put it on SharePoint, um, because it's, it can be accessed by the shepherd. It's not the greatest tool ever, but it could be accessed by absolutely everybody in the country. And we actually had a work's due on Friday. I had so many people come up to me and say, oh, this is really good. This is what I've been looking for. This is really nice. This is, you know, it just kind of really explain things and put it into context. Well, not to care, you know, and it's, you know, kind of links out to things. It kind of explains why we're doing things and stuff like that. And in all the older, you know, I think, I think one of the key things I put in there was only 21% of people don't have Hani any accessibility requirements, only 21% of people still on these clubs don't have any accessibility requirements. I mean, let's, let's face it meeting your weight glasses now, like that that's a very accessible and then, you know, all the temporary ones and stuff like that, but yeah. And then kind of people were getting like, oh, I'd never even thought about it. And those kinds of things and loads of people going like, this is such a great thing I've been looking for. And you've just put it all together in one place. And so many people from different parts of the business, come up to me and say, this is, this is amazing. And, um, for me, that kind of just kind of likes that. Good leadership because not only am I changing kind of the immediate team, and now I am giving myself a, uh, talk about this without sounding like, no, that's not what we do, but no, but, but I, again, as, as a leader for me, it's kind of like, you know, even if I can, and I've thought about this for the last week. And I was thinking, even if I could only change like three, five people's mindsets, Then it's like the snowball or the self of the mountain is that you start with a tiny little snowball. And then if those three or five people go on to different jobs and they can get like, oh, we have this great tool and this job, then it goes into that. And then at the end of it, you've got massive avalanche. That's what, that's exactly what was happened, Paul, because I came to work for you as a graphic designer, as a designer who thought I'm the designer, I know what's best. And I left working for you as a UX designer saying, I don't know, fucking anything, talk to the user but that is the snowball thing. And now I've got three, I've got three people on my team, two of which I directly line manage you. I'm teaching that to now. So that's exactly how it happened. It's like exponential growth. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's sometimes it's those little thing will slide, you know, I'm kinda like, you know, I, I didn't really enjoy bloody working with SharePoint, but so those little things that kind of light, you know, I'm really glad I put that effort. And then can I, you know, did it a bit on my own personal time and can like, you know, cause uh, you know, work things, get them that way, but it's something I was passionate about doing and uh, and then kind of like giving that out back to the company and um, and it's just making those. You know, and, and so w what's that phrase, it's kinda like, if you can change a few people's minds, you can change a million there's about phrase. Yeah. It's the exponential growth thing in it. I don't know the butterfly effect. If I flat by wings here as a fucking tornado and Japan I've just killed about 20 people. Uh, I've just Googled, but it's not changing the world one mind at a time. Is it? That seems a bit, oh, that sounds like a Michael Jackson song sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. Probably all long before I feel like that person needs to delegate. I can't pull up out of management. Really. You have to tell everybody individually. I think you're right in, in the point that, um, that's one thing I picked up on that, that particular part about having something that's accessible by the entire organization is that, um, That's part of what you're setting up as a manager and the part of these processes that have to have a life and have to have an understanding outside of your team. Accessibility is a great example of this because it very often start. If you have a, a, an organization that doesn't understand accessibility, then it usually starts in the UX team when they get round to, you know, getting one. Um, and then the UX team immediately says, hold up, this is everyone's job. This is everyone's responsibility. And then spends however long it takes building the necessary tools, processes, workshops, presentations, et cetera, to explain to people why they are just as responsible for accessibility as a UX designer. Um, but it does take a, uh, a manager at a particular position and often with a particular tenacity as well to, uh, To be able to do that and to push that in front of the right people. I think it's actually a very kind of vital part to, to air. It comes into that, um, that shit shield attack every, you know, though, as well, you're arming the other people around you, those in parallel roles, um, especially parallel management positions for the same information you have, so that essentially you can align, you can, you know, get on the same page and, and, and remove the friction. I think that's an essay point is really good. Actually, the part of big part of my job is, was realizing, well, I always knew it, but he's actually following through on my own. Words. It's like, I like to say, you know, I'm aggressively opinionated or whatever it, but, but there will come a point where I'll just kind of like, okay, all right, I'll bet your way. But part of the job is to like, not do that and to be tenacious and not take no for an answer, particularly with accessibility and a new UX. It's like, I, like, I understand, like sometimes you can be too empathetic. I understand why you want what you want or why you want to not do the UX process, but still no. Yeah, yeah. This is why you hired me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Or not. I mean, sometimes it's not them, that's aging, but this is why the business that hired you hired me. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The tenacity thing is a big thing because it's it, you might have an easier life if you just go, okay. Yeah, let's do it your way, but that's not right. Is it. Until you get to your own, um, your own team, when typically you should be able to say, yeah, we'll do it your way because I've given you everything you need. Yeah. You mean the team that oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You should say yes. As much as possible to your team while say, cross, sell for view. Tell, tell everyone parallel, you know, tell everyone below you. Yes. Which as a blanket rule is probably not as effective as it could be. Um, but have to bear in mind. I don't know, you know, uh, polio muted. No, I was just, I was just, um, there's a couple of things. Um, just to go on your point, uh, Nick, about the ranting, uh, stuff. I think there was somebody who was talking the other day, but it was the professor in a university, Atlanta, like a stuffed monkey outside the room and a big sign saying, tell your problem to the monkeys first, before you come in. And sometimes that's all that somebody wants to do is just offload that problem. Is, is that a good management technique? Then know? I didn't quite know because, um, but I think, I think sometimes though, it's that when you've got a problem, you need to formalize it verbally, understand the problem of verbalize it to understand it. Yeah. Yeah. Um, And I think in development they have like called a rubber, rubber ducky, the rubber dock. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. I knew it was something to do with like fouls. Yeah. So, uh, when you have a foul problem yeah. You talked to the rubber diner and you explained to kind of like what you're trying to do and then something clicks. Eh, I kind of, then you can then kind of like go, oh yeah, I saw that the sweat. And it's interesting. I, um, th there's a website. Um, let me Google this for you. My mate sends me those all the time, my medicines. And then sometimes it's like, kinda like, you just want to talk to somebody about it. I lost my question, a question, and they'll L it'll reply with a, let me Google that for you. And then there's an animation where it taps the question into Google and then it searches it and presented here and he's like, all right. Do you understand what a friendship is? I was quite, if you want, we can both go our separate ways now, ever again. I was just striking up a conversation. I'll go for a coffee with Google's my laptop and just pop coffee on the keyboard. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. When you were saying that, it just reminded me about that story about that professor, but I think that's fine. Isn't it? Rubber duck into one thing. Sometimes you just need to align your own thoughts. Very often talking out someone gives you the context you need. Um, learn little subtle knowledge. So there they might sit their mirror in yet. Say just repeating the last few words you said to try and get her drug more out. If you, I like the, uh, quiet light, the rubber duck thing, but the problem with the rubber duck thing is you could ask the rubber duck. Questions or talk to the rubber duck questions a thousand times, but the one occasion where the Rupert replies that's, you might, you might have been keeping it into long. Well, what should it is? Um, is a table, a component or a part, and then the rubber ducks, like kill them all, Nick, I kind of liked that Robert up, but sometimes that he kinda like say that it's kinda like, you know, just go away and talk to yourself and do it. If you do that all the time, you just get elemental wind around your Headspace. Well, again, like what a team's for as well. I have a mob obsession of, you can cut through the crap for whatever, you know, Securitas monologue Hills spoke to last Paul Dulcie. Yeah. Um, I mean, this might be like bordering on philosophy again, but you cannot, you're only capable of thinking the things that you're capable of thinking right now. It doesn't matter how long you sit and stew on something. You've only got the capacity of your brain. Whereas like you said earlier, mark, I could be, I may well be the most creative person in the world. Right. But I'm never going to be as creative as the combined creativity of five of the creative people. Exactly. Even if. Even if you do enter some Zen like medicine triumphs and come to some enlightenment about your terrible component, it's going to suck a bit longer than if you have a discussion with your team. Multiple. Yeah, yeah. Just five minutes. Five days. Yeah. Yeah. It's um, yeah. Uh, the other thing is all you mentioned earlier, Nate, you took them out to people getting the same page and stuff like that. And I think, I think as a leader, it's almost like you have to teach everybody a certain language, a language of terminology, like literally language terminology is one of the most important things in light, definitely building a team and, uh, and, uh, interacting with the rest of the business. Yeah, definitely. And then everybody, you know, if you can teach not only your team, but the rest of the business, that language, then communication becomes faster, quicker, more innovative, kind of like you can solve problems easier. Otherwise then you're talking to the rubber dock and gala. What the fuck is that table? Is that a component? Is it a farm? Uh, you know, and then everybody's kind of like, if, if somebody questions it, then everybody's going to question it. That's my philosophy. Um, and kinda let you have to put that in kind of like plain to religious, the acception, disproves the rules kind of thing, which is original. Quite a lot of people say this wrong there. So the exception proves the rule, which is no exception, quite undermines the rule and explains how it doesn't actually exist as a rule because there's an acception. So it comes as it would be a rule. It's not got to go off on a tangent. So you've misunderstood the misunderstanding. So prove in this case means tests. So the exception test the rule. Okay. Okay. That's what it means. Whereas it prove in today's world has come to mean like prove it is. Bachelor prove is a synonym for test. Ah, proof is also a, a synonym for resting is embarking as well. Yeah, but it does not mean that your you're testing the door to make sure that the yeast is working with. I have no idea. I have no idea as to why, what that actually means, which campus, uh, let me Google that for call back. Uh, right. It's like poets come back around, but yeah, basically you are, you've just tweaked the same. Well, the original court that the I said is actually, um, and it it's written just proves the rule is how it exists within, uh, Arthur Conan, Doyle, Sherlock Holmes, which is where I first encountered that. Uh, one of those words where prove and disprove essentially mean the same, the same thing. Yeah, probably. Yes. Yeah, because if you disproving something, you proving the opposite to be true, which is technically proving. Yeah. Um, It's prove and proof two different words as well. Yes. Welcome to We literally could do a show where we just pick a word and talk about that word for like an hour. We couldn't think, I think we have, that would be interesting for other people or not topic. It probably works. Today's word of the day is the word as a myth, which refers to, to the arc between two points on a compass or the horizon. Why is there a word? I don't know, but I read this book once and it used that word twice in the same page, which definitely meant that that person has hit the button. Seeing that word like ticks so much on that day that they used it twice and then completely forgot. toilet paper. Exactly. Yeah. And I, I, I really enjoyed that. Um, there is one thing I wanted to talk about quickly. I'm not sure how much time we've got left on the subject, but, um, mark steel is banging up the door. Yeah. Outside the toilet where I'm sitting in Bolton services. But, uh, when it came to, to getting your leadership role, one of the first things I did was try to break it down, right. Try to break all of it down. And I've managed to break things down into three things, which was people, product and process three PS, uh, you know, people being either the, typically for me, it was from the leadership perspective. Are you the people you're managing the people you're working alongside processes, uh, you know, how you do it, how you create stuff and. So it's who, how, um, wops, essentially products is what you're building. But then when I was sorry, thinking what, who Howard fought, who, how, or the hot, which sounds like a resonant, the hops and the halls. But, um, I noticed that when I was thinking about this, because this diagram came to me about three o'clock in the morning, which is apparently when my inspirations. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a relationships between these two, these, any two of these three things. So for example, if you cross people and process, you tend to, you get what I call called the culture. That's why a culture blinds, because it's how people are doing and what they're doing when you cross your people and your product. You get identity, which is personally my favorite, because it's how your UX designers are to be abstracting a loop. But it's how they're actualizing in, uh, in accordance to the wider organization. It's how they're achieving the, their specialism. That's how they're using their skills relative to your product. And that's how well it feeds into the portfolio ideas of being public facing ideas of getting your team at conferences and stuff like that. And then, and then when you've got process and products that that's your delivery, that's where that exists and that that's, you know, that just dives a lot deeper into to how, you know, your processes actually influence your products and stuff like that. And, um, What, what we then went on to do, uh, was we did a UX day where gave everyone the opportunity to mourn and every single one of the moms or praises indeed fell into one of these six categories. And from that you were, you are, or at least I was able to get quite a good of a few. You can then prioritize, you know, solutionize around those things to use our favorite word. Um, but it's not a word it's not, not to think of solutions, um, to solve. Yes, you could then solve these products. Yeah. Have you proven that it's yet to be proved, but you know, it's on the azimuth of the next, uh, the next year, X day. But yeah, I wanted to mention those kinds of six things that, for me, I've always found quite a nice circle. It's like a Venn diagram and it's like, yeah, essentially it's three Venn diagrams in one in the middle. You can put kind of your core theme. Yeah. For me, it's always rethinking, I'll like find rest in the middle of that. All like your brand, you couldn't, this brand could be in the middle there by all these things. Like a lot of, a lot of companies, kid themselves that like they have this outward facing brand and they have these, um, Like tenants that the business have, like they usually about three or four out there and all, all businesses have these things, but it amount to the same thing, which is like, we're good, we're good people. And the people give us your money because your money. Yeah. That's the outward brand. Right. But when you get into the business, it turns out it's like a toxic work culture and there's lots of crunch and loads of light turnover because people hate it and you treat people like peons and like they're replaceable, whereas actually your culture and your brand should be the same thing. I said, it's definitely very, very, yeah, they, yeah, they should want mutually arise basically. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I completely agree with that. This, this for me was a kind of gateway to, to establishing, trying to establish a roadmap. If you will follow the maturity of UX within the organization, Um, and then, then ironically, the blocker I hit was getting anyone to look at it immature then. Yeah. So that's still something existence on the sidelines. I'll get back for pushing that one. I, like she said, UX there, there that's it just completely, it just reminded me that that's one thing that I've, I've started on our team. So I've re every other Wednesday. So every two weeks we have a UX day and it's just an entire day blocked out for the UX team to do stuff together and found that we do that in person now. So we book out, um, the boardroom or like one of the larger meeting rooms where we hook parabolic to the team. And we have a two hour UX retro in the morning. So that's the first thing we do. We'll start at 10. So you've either got an hour to do whatever answer emails in the morning, or, uh, rocket lit. We start at 10 in the meeting room. We do the UX retro and we spend. Two hours doing as many or as little tickets are on the board within that two hours. And then we have dinner and we usually all go out together. Cause we're in the center of Manchester. It's quite good. So we can go off to lunch and then we'd come back in. We have a component review for an hour and a half. So at the moment, I'm trying to establish like a design system. And we've got a bit of the V zero, which is basically a fucking mood board of all the different disparate components on the websites and mobile apps and stuff. And like, you know, 27 versions of the same button. Um, and we're, we're now refining those components talking about and right down to the nuts and bolts. And then once we've done that and we refined it, we're creating a V1 and dropping this new component in. So we do that. Then we have another block break, 15 minutes. So like any, any just, uh, just is, uh, is a bit of a tip to any manager out there. If you're doing a meeting. That's over an hour and a half rethink your life because no one, no one is listening to you. No, one's interested, really be doing a meet in this over an hour without breath. If it's over an hour and a half, like Reed, just cut it, cut it off. They're like, no one should be putting into our meetings or like, or half day long meetings. It's ridiculous. So we have an hour and a half and then we have 15 minutes break and then we have a UX and. Component review. So in this meeting, we go over the component that we refined last week, or, um, two weeks ago in our component review and we show it to the dabs and which we run through with the devs and see where the problems are, the, or not with those. And then that's ready for late release or wherever or refinement, where are we going to do? And then after that we have a UX SLT meetings or the three seniors. Well, the two seniors and the head of the UX. And just go over stuff. Um, and the other guys can just kind of do what they want. They can catch it with work or they can talk amongst themselves, or they can carry on with like refining fall inside anything they want, but the run bothered by the rest of the business for the rest of the deck, but it's booked out and it's going really well so far. It's been, you know, everyone's really liking it and it's, we do a lot of work. We get a lot of questions answered and we do a lot of work, but we're fucking laughing the whole time, which is really, really nice. Like everyone's really enjoying it. So yeah, I'll let you know how that goes in future, but I'm pretty good. Actually, one of the things we realized almost straight away is that the component review aspects of it, we need to do that every week, at least. So we do a component review every Wednesday and then everything else is every other week, the component view reviews are our weekly. Um, yeah, I think that is a really good example of the significance of, of working in person. Um, and, and something that I personally have, we talked about this in the past, but I personally believe that working remotely is yet to catch up with us because we have sessions like that. Um, but because they're remote, then everyone's just sat quiet because you know, no one's interacting with anyone else. Yeah, no one. Um, so, so realistically, the only chemistry is between the person who's speaking and the screen, um, and the unexciting. I think it's important to mention though that like we, we have, and I think it's important to, uh, facilitate like people. Want to, I need to work from home on that day. So whether, whether we've agreed to come in or not, we go to a room where we're able to dial into a team's call. And then you don't have to explain yourself if either you attend or you're done. And I don't mind either way. It's totally optional, but if you're at home that. You can dial in and attend any one of those calls like remotely through teams, or that's the idea because not to like throw a shed at anyone, but the, it is not cigarette at the moment. So the call, isn't always the greatest success book up, put I'm willing at the moment to put that down to like a return to work and, um, underestimation of the demand on the wifi, when people come back into the office versus like having worked remotely for two years, so see how that pans out. But yeah, I think it's important, you know, to like any managers or whatever, listening to give that option. And don't put any emphasis in fastest on either attending or not like that's up to the person. If you've got flexibility there as part of the culture, then that's exactly what it is. And you don't demand that anyone comes in or stares at home. Their parents have made that decision. It's interesting. I, uh, I did a workshop a week or so ago and, um, I took all the chairs out the meeting room, uh, so that nobody could sit down and just go on the laptop, laptops or band, uh, chancel band. And afterwards, everybody said that was the best workshop I've ever been. Well, because the kind of like when the stood up, they have to interact. So they have to diesel them. Otherwise you feel awkward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it got everybody talking and everybody kind of listening and kind of. The workshop was 45 minutes. Right? Okay. And this workshop shot. I find a five minute meeting where I'm stood up. I will be inspired to kill you by the end of it. high heels. I, I choose my choices. Sorry, Nick. You were saying, I don't think I was saying that. I would just say like, no, I don't think it was. Yeah, but aye. Aye. Aye. I always try and put my meetings for about half an hour because I think anybody's attention span after half an hour. It is. Yeah. I think if I add my way, no, me, it would be longer than half an hour, but you have to be realistic and pragmatic, pragmatic goodbye as well. Like you can get some work, you can get some words on in an hour. And there's always the thing about the reason that, um, the, our UX retro is an hour and a half. It's like 20 minutes to half an hour that he spent bullshit into this other thing, which is, which is nice and a welcoming, but you've got to account for that time on now. Yeah, definitely. Anyway, is it time to turn the volume down on your headphones? Are you going to run the intro then? I've got, yeah, the feed T. Stands for video of temp. Nothing's wrong. It's just been a debt technology for at least 20 years now going well. He takes it. Huh? Right. Well, it's time for an expectations. Um, January the phones down, everyone, there's a segment of the show where we pick a random product object, service, our place, and it's on ball and machine and discuss it's terrible. All grit UX spin the wheel, Nick. I've just realized something, an inconsistency there, is it a wheel or is it a tombola because those two things are very different. So, you know, oh, why you realize in this like two years? Absolutely. I've actually listened to myself, which is not something to do a lot. Listen to the words that were coming out of my mouth. Uh, uh, Paul's mouth. I should, sometimes I get myself and Paul confused. Tyler didn't fight glimpse, situated. Um, yeah, so we are weak in a way that at any point, because there are people at home now cursing as they've gone through the third pair of AirPods. Yeah, I got, I think it's just you who wants this change? No, one's written in here. Probably because we don't provide a PO box and anywhere. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, any other number of white powders? We, we, we can do it if you want. We, can we do it again? Spin the tombola machine, correct. The Durham. Right? Do we need a song then we need a song. The customary clear my throat. I'll just do it. I'm good. I'm going in. Um, pick one, pick one, pick one, pick one, pick, pick a thing, pick a subject that we're going to, to, to pick one, pick one, pick one, pick one pick, but do it quick. Cause I need to go for a, I realized, I realized this morning that I'm limited myself by singing the words U X tombola and that creates a certain like kid and this doesn't that. Whereas if we just avoid that term and allude to the action of picking something, ah, spinning, spinning the tombola, we can have a lot more play in the rhythm and, uh, Sean rhe of and a more uselessness will also, did you say that you have nothing better to do in your mornings? in like two years or whatever that's the most I've ever put into and I didn't even get, as far as the words, just like just the melody. Well, I mean the exclusion of you Exxon polar. Anyway, anyway, uh, we need to pick one last, a good question again. If I had given this any thought I'd have had it ready to go spend, spend away on that. And it's so today's UX tombola is the UX of. Cling film. That's the UX of film, saran wrap, kitchen, plastic, thoroughly. What? You will the name of an alt sorry, let me wrap again. Oh yeah. Um, what, what's your. Problem once you're playing point problem, the first person to ask that ball, but definitely the first person to ask it in such a car where the problem with, well, there's a few in there. I mean, it's the seller to problem. Like you can't find the fucking edge. One thing about, uh, clingfilm and I reckon I'm partially responsible because I always just buy the cheapest roll of clingfilm that they have, but you unwrap it. And the bottom end of it, the bottom, like interests or stairs where it is, and it ends up like tearing all the way around anyone else get that issue. I think that's to do with the fact that it's cheap. It's cheap shit. We've got clingfilm co a box now where we put it in and you pull it out and like rip it. You rip it, but it doesn't work. It works. And it works with greaseproof paper book, cling films, like to feather it, or it ends up just getting stuck to itself. So that's a nightmare. Also I heard about 20 years ago, the it's a carcinogenic it's clean film if you eat it. No, like, I don't know what I mean, like the plastic or maybe it's got something on it and that clingfilm to make it either clean or not clean. It's got like an yeah, it's got like during the manufacturing process, they put something on it. So you can separate it again. I think also how it sped yeah. So there's a lot wrong because I know the thing about clingfilm is like, you may know, you may not know that I do. I used to do before the pandemic, a bit of tattooing and like cling film features heavily in that industry as well. So you wrap it, you clean everything down and then you cover it with clean film basically to make sure it's extra clean and then you clean the clingfilm. Um, and then when you don't, you just take it all off again. But again, not that that whole process is a nightmare. If the rap stuff, if the pick it, if the pick the end off, if the make sure that you can use it again. Sorry, but to fix that. I actually think one of the, we didn't hear the bird actually. Sorry, we heard was your elementary on the bell that resulted like a gunshot, but she's probably going to die. Yeah. The thing is the thing is for me with clingfilm, it's your plastic problem again? Isn't it. And it's just overall off plastic. You know, I was talking to Chris about this when I saw, uh, I think it was Chris. I was talking to reflection, reflection, reflection, or I have a controversially. I have a similar problem with like, And yeah, you know, my thing is I love, like I don't really play with it because quite frankly, I don't have the space to put it once it's built. Um, but, uh, I can't help foot, you know, I can't quite reconcile the fact that essentially what I'm doing is working with hundreds of bits of plastic that really are gonna remain exactly as they are. Long after I've gone. Um, and it's kind of the Sanford clingfilm. In fact, I'd say clingfilm was even worse, quite substantially worse because, um, that's gonna look a lot more like, um, like a, everybody jellyfish in the ocean than, than my Lego piano I spent. the time in which it's useful is like infant testimony less than, yes, you can't clean clingfilm. Um, You know, as in to reuse it, because that, I mean, just to know, I mean, maybe that's the product idea, then clean film, cleaned film. That's a reusable claim. Well, if that's the thing now, so have you seen those things that look like, like condoms that you put over the stretch over the top of like you could stretch or when you have the tin of beans and then you put like a flowery condom over the top, and once it's on the tin, you can do whatever you want with that 10, you know, it's protected. Um, you're not going to get beans everywhere inside you. Microwave. Mark is what I'm talking. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Get your mind out. Am I maybe in the gossip, whatever I'm looking at the stars, you know, when you get a segue into Roscoe, wild caught, you know, you're not that tired. I mean, I'm honestly going back to bed just after this conversation. Um, yeah. Reusable, cling film does exist. I'm a little bit still. I still really don't like the, those things. So it's just made out of another non biodegradable thing, isn't it? No, I think we do advertise now. Some of them are made from recycled materials, but that's kind of the bare minimum. Now I should expect that. So yeah. I tend to always default towards, um, 10 file if I need clingfilm for anything, typically it's wrapping food for, you know, for the fridge. So our phone file has been all right. Because I'm the kind of person that if I've got leftovers in the fridge, one or two things that's going to happen there. Right. Either eaten that later that day, or they are left so long that they're crawling to the fridge to collab with squatting rights. Yeah. You know, I've almost had a block of cheese offered to pay their rent before. So, um, so yeah, I kind of tin files always been fine for me when it's come to wrapping food. And that, I believe at least I've put that in my recycling. I don't know home how much, um, I recycle, but is a hundred percent, same with Kit-Kat wrappers. Okay. I didn't know there's chocolate in this house actually, but she's probably explains why I'm so miserable all the time. Nothing to do with this show called chronic. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. See problem. Well, problem solve. Exactly. Oh yeah. Clean fill. I I've stopped using it now, but, um, because it's just so. It's pretty impossible to use it. I wasn't, it kinda like what, what I ended up doing with clean fill, where you kind of like start to wrap some of it, then you get a hole in it, then you wrap the thing again, over a different direction. Then you got a hole in that bit and that all of that bet doesn't quite fit. You've missed the piece. Uh, and then you've got about 60 layers. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a ball. You have to overuse it or there's no point in using it. It just comes off the top. Yeah. Oh yeah. The part, the part of the important part of the word cling fell. I mean, if you, if you break it down, it's a film that clings to things, but ironically, unless you use more than one layer at a time, it doesn't cling to anything. The only thing he clings to is sea turtles and tests. Exactly. Exactly. Um, and you know, I, to see, even, even when I'm not trying to put them in the fridge yeah. You eat and you fail and leftover, oh, what should you do with the rest of these seats? Testings, mark pop a bit of clingfilm than, and fish we'll eat the rest layer. Anyone's offended by that statement go, maybe go to the post office or post office. It might be a pamphlet or something. I saw the cool kids. Call it time for St. Paul. Stop it. Too busy writing sea turtles to save can't fuck around. I'm off to the office. Ah, good. Which reminds me of a news story. Uh, this week that happened, um, they found a, uh, a note in a bottle that washed up in. On the shore from Barbados or something, there was two, two girls and they wrote kind of like a, almost a dating profile and this and this note and put it into the scene. And then, but I kind of wonder, I wonder what the logic behind that was because like, if you put a kid on the news, it won't get on the news 20 years later. And it said like, uh, I not . It was like proper. I liked, I like to engage with human activities such as laughing and breathing. I also like to walk when I can't sit down and occasionally seats up a little test. But, but it made me think like what, why would you put that in the ball? Are you trying to go on a date with a poor boys or something, or, or a man who's lost at sea? Yeah. And that's when you've been founded on a desert island for the best part of six weeks, you get a bus, a bus. I see that whatever word covered, Asher worse. So I was trying to say that profile of someone who says I'm not bad looking and I liked your laugh. Can I not Butler highlights? Swipe right. The bottle, right. Fly to, is it I bow to write it down? I'm I am 58 at the time of reading this probably that's where I invested back. Yeah. Yeah. Rapid and clean. So it doesn't get wet. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, I think, yeah, environmental shit, besides the usability problems, Nick listed them all very rightly as clearly been, you know, this is something that's hard to read on this for a while. Yeah. A number of years. Um, and I think it's, it's. Like it's like seller tip. That's made less of a commitment, you know, one side sticky one time now it's then specifically to be used as small, small, um, portions, small, um, the moment. Um, so I should just superior everything apart from maybe, uh, you know, preserving food wrapping around new chicken. Yeah. All pranks on the toilet. That's the other thing. Yeah, I know. I haven't gathered those because I can, I can, I like the pop toilet paper over there. And I think like, it's so fucking showing me up. Like the joins are kind of way. We've tried to put it out in about 60 layers on why would anybody not, unless you. Take the light out the bathroom. I think you do depend on a certain level of his ability or you have to accompany it with, you know, um, that's just something that means someone doesn't look at the toilet before they sit down and basically, um, someone's in a row. Um, cause you're the grandkids to do it too fast over your doorway, isn't it? Oh yeah. And I think that's a bit more effective because you tend not to look at the space a bit in the doorway, which is arguably another philosophical point in today's rather cerebral podcast. Oh, gosh, it just bit me on my soap box for 14 hours. I would love to do that. Cause it's, it's one of those things where there's no right or wrong answer and it just go on forever. Oh, had said it that until people started commenting. Yeah. That's what listens. Think of this point in the show. And it's going to go on forever. I feel like if anyone's made it this far into this, not only this episode, but like the series as a whole they're in for the ride at this point, whatever it is that we do. But yeah, this one, this is probably so well, I like, go ahead. I like the idea of refer your food, condoms for condoms. Um, I think so, first of all, like just get rid of clingfilm and do it now. Like stop, stop making it. Yeah. There isn't really a place for clingfilm in modern society. Not in, you know, there are solutions to know around such things as eating more sustainably you greedy bastard. Uh, The thing is, uh, like us very much place in, again, that's the product themselves, though. You could do some kind of sleeve solution isn't perhaps really usable, but made out of a more economical material made with more thought in mind. Okay. I mean, you can get that stuff that you make food, big bags out of Narcos like corn cornstarch. Is it? So it's like totally biodegradable. I don't know what the, I don't know what the economical manufacturing cost devise, like in terms of that's true for us to wrap food. And that's the idea is that it creates, it creates a, um, essentially a vacuum. Doesn't it? It creates a perfect seal and the Trimble. Yeah. Um, I mean, I think we've got an idea. We've got a name. I think clean film is, is what we run with and we just see now we get a complimentary free gift of condoms. I like the idea of putting one of those on tomato catch-up and then you've got a condiment fucking, and that was, uh, it was brilliant. It was still controlling. All of it. Condiments Tom dominance. Right? So clean film and condiments and today, um, I think mark should be live bolt and surface. It's just often the new, just a sliding door. And I was saying that you're all the same. Thank you for coming to McDonald's a day. Oh, well, I'll see you there. Oh no. I was just adjusting myself. I've not gone into character today about ride states. What a bit weaker than them. I don't know why I have a, uh, I probably brought up for y'all today with a special on the side, which is incidentally. Everything we provide here at Malden services, have a special on the side. Uh, well, that's how you asked how we make our money today. I'm offering you a solution to cling film that he's, uh, uh, neither clingy, nor because it's a sheet of plastic that, you know what it's technically tough. Holy mark. Mark is just selling the stuff he's got in his back yard and getting more and more desperate as he tries to think a couple of jingle or he's just selling old dishwashers and catch ketchup bottle of charging for it. That sounds too early on Branford Diaz, uh, and not only the heels don't look like that. You don't need to go to the hospital. Just the idea of like, I must it, I can't get the idea of mustard, my head. I don't know why. I'm not sure I've got anything today for mayonnaise. It'd be the classic one for me. That was good. That was good. I think it will go, oh God, I cook soup. The very thing. I was going to say more like a task or if it's a bit while too graphic. So. And entire care in size 10 on chowder. Right. We've got too far. We've got delirious, right? Yeah. I mean, like back in with mark, Steve, I don't even know what we're selling. We're selling clingfilm that you can give that pool. And it was at the drive-thru turned it over. So I don't know, smell porridge or whatever, do whatever the fuck they sell. Uh, um, and you know, they just want, you could find scavenged, hot forage food, but, you know, Hey is, is slugs and, you know, um, the cold. Okay. What came off the side of the road and that's what that's, that's what marks all sorts of stuff. And he's doing really well these days actually, you know, the is obviously doing well. It's not as if he's demeaned himself. So a lot of work is he's not happy at Bolton services or anything. Yeah. Yeah. So that was a drive-through okay. Through my, and it was a flooding flogging stuff for his backyard at the same time. Hashtag. Yeah, you're right. You're going to see us out and fall. Uh, should we say it's a roll the credits so I'm like it. Well, we'll see if we come, that's it. For this episode of faster horses. If you like the show, please like subscribe and leave a review. It really does help. You can join us on patreon.com/faster horses from one pound a month. For more chats, you ex tombola and the hottest new products from bolt Keds on mark stealer. Special. Thanks to James match for our theme shoe. I'm mark. So cliff I'm Nick Tomlinson. Follow us on Twitter at faster horses, UX, and we'll catch you in two weeks for more faster horses. Yeah, I've got you. I've got you. I was going to get you a t-shirt um, by then realize that no circumstances would mark. Yeah. It's an absolute waste of, yeah. I just have a big, have you called that? I went for some patches. So somebody yourselves, did you have some refills as well? Got some stickers. Yeah, I'm gonna stick that onto my work laptop for the next person after I leave. I've done the same. So there's my work laptop for sticking our laser. Uh, yeah, I thought should I put it on my personal laptop, but I thought, nah,