Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology

Design Language vs Tone of Voice

• Faster Horses • Season 4 • Episode 9

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So what’s the difference between design language and tone of voice? Where are the boundaries between the tone of voice and design language, and who leads the strategy of these? Are they interchangeable?


In literature, the Tone of Voice refers to the author’s feelings towards the subject, as expressed through the writing itself. Writing for the web is obviously different from writing prose (or at least it should be since web users read very little.) Still, every scrap of writing on a page (from body copy to button labels and other UX copywriting) contributes to the tone of voice we’re using to speak to our users (https://www.nngroup.com/articles/tone-of-voice-dimensions/).


Visual communication is exceptionally complicated. It’s diverse, boundless, and relentless. To induce a sense of clarity and coherence to it, we need to establish a series of constraints that will help us communicate with our end-users. This is where Design Language comes into play (https://www.uxpin.com/studio/blog/design-language/)


Why are these important, and how can navigate those tricky workplace politics?


All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses.


🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler


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PEACE!


Produced by:

Paul Wilshaw

Nick Tomlinson

Mark Sutcliffe

Anthony Jones

Chris Sutcliffe

Title music: James Medd

Sound effects: https://www.zapsplat.com 

Support the show

All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses, a podcast about UX, UXR, UI design, products and technology (sometimes!)

🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler

👕 Get stickers and tees at https://www.paulwilshaw.com/shop/

The show is hosted by:
Paul Wilshaw
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilshaw/
and
Mark Sutcliffe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sutcliffemark/

If you want to suggest an idea, or join us on the show, send us a message 👆.

Nick:

Thank you. Thank you. Madam in the front. Put your nickers back on.

Mark:

Please. I will return your brasier after the show.

Nick:

After I cleaned my car in it.

Mark:

About it might have been on the lost episode, actually, I can't remember. But when we were talking about the fact that when it comes to security thereafter, the most secure thing they can get,

Nick:

Yeah.

Mark:

is

Nick:

No access at all. Yeah.

Mark:

by everyone, just

Nick:

Kill everyone.

Mark:

and Kiersten led at the bottom of the ocean.

Nick:

Ultimate security. A

Mark:

Like an age of Ultron approach.

Nick:

yeah.

Mark:

humans are the problem,

Nick:

Yeah. Like the iRobot. What's the guy who wrote the man,

Mark:

the Chap, I will say sky net approach is what kind of any AI

Nick:

any sci-fi? No.

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

just

Mark:

this, how have the same experience.

Nick:

Yeah. How actually I don't remember what happens in the storyline to that.

Paul:

off as

Nick:

it? Yeah. Yeah. Albert was, it has him anyway. Let's

Paul:

Yeah,

Nick:

hit the intro. Shall we?

Mark:

Yeah,

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Welcome to faster horse is I'm one of your hosts, Paul Wilshaw

Mark:

maybe listen, step.

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teams of Another well-known brands. the

Nick:

Oh, not lots of awards and a few hackathons. I'm Nick Tomlinson.

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lead UX designer, Manchester

Paul:

based in.

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And I'm mark

Mark:

I'm mark Sutcliffe, UX designer and the art automations

Nick:

Oh, this is awful.

mediaboard_video:

We'll be talking about designing user experience.

Mark:

I said myself.

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Fully where we pick apart the experience of a random product objectives, poop the specialist from fruit. If you want to be part

Paul:

I kind of Nick then

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with

Nick:

Very confusing.

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Mark:

Just going to say right off the bat, I am putting it amount of faith. In the fact it says actual recording is higher quality in the top left hand corner of our screen because that plant back was interesting say the least.

Nick:

it's.

Paul:

it lives its but live streams are back to.

Nick:

Not even noticed where it said that. So that's terrible UX. Speaking of which what's the what's the subject today? Sorry, by the way, anyone who's watching on the YouTubes, if you notice that my camera's just gone off, I'm eating tuna pasta back. So

Mark:

asked us what the topic was, but

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

I don't know. Has anyone picked a topic?

Paul:

what, is the top is the

Nick:

the.

Paul:

For today is language versus tone of voice

Mark:

yes. I remember now.

Paul:

the difference Design language tone of voice and is tone of voice design language.

Mark:

I think in the biggest, sorry, huge, lovely sniff there back your pardon?

Paul:

Mark's just recovering from,

Mark:

Yeah. That's why I sound my head is full of right now because an accurate portrayal of the fact. but

Nick:

of us are in mark.

Mark:

I sneezed into a into a handkerchief and it looked, just looked like a tuna pasta, but heck I must be honest.

Nick:

I'm now.

Mark:

So any of our listeners, all three of you who do listen to this whilst you're eating, I'd say I'm sorry, but I'm not. Going to do so much more productive, Ricardo podcast. Tone of voice and design language, who wants to describe which one for.

Paul:

Wow. That's a question, cuz like. What is designing, I think, and people get these two things confused and intertwined and intermixed quite a lot. I think probably what's easier to describe is what tone of voice is. And then we'll like up if everyone agrees,

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

what design language then. So tone of voice me is so this is more Brandy kind of stuff. And she's come down kinda like that brand level. And it's the, if you think about like your favorite brands Ikea, know, they. They're simple, uncomplicated, know, and everything's got that Swedish flavor and that's their tone voice, and then there's, other brands like oh, mention apple, there's a sophisticated, really nicely designed products, leading innovative tech giants with a bit of whimsy every now and again with their emojis and stuff like that thrown in, but generally little bit of a different audience that do that developer conference stuff, general customer facing thing as a slightly different tone voice. that tone of voice. And it's what you are saying about your brand and what you're saying about your products and how you say it. And in what manner. Nick's back.

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

that, that yeah. And there's scales of tone of voice. I think we did an exercise on this, so you can apply, are you corporate, are you, know, fun kind of depends on kind where your target audiences, if you are selling stuff to builders, you probably don't wanna be tech jargony you wanna be down to Earth like getting the job done, strong, robust, that kind of thing, without excluding women and I being very macho

Mark:

I think

Paul:

and that,

Mark:

absolutely. I think a good example of that would be a good example of tone of voice because is, I completely agree with you. There are politics, so intrinsically linked to your target audience. It's it's very much how you say it is you're saying, but if you think about how razorblades this might sound really odd, but tangent dental. Razorblades are advertised to both men and women, but they are advertised in essentially the same products, very often multiple razors in a head. usually there's a, some kind of strip. That's a bar monitor of some kind, and then they talk about it. A good I'll mix, its ability to twist in turn. To your shape. So the three, three main USP's are active in both male razors. Present in both. But the way those adverts are put together, the words that are used, the presentation is completely different.

Paul:

Hundred percent.

Mark:

You have the idea of for men's skin care, any, anything on man's house? This is changing slightly now, certainly used to be the case. The idea is it actually makes you Bulletproof. It makes you stronger. It makes you more resilient. The power of the, Mac three turbo, laser razor,

Paul:

Yeah. It's very, yeah, it's very top

Mark:

Exactly.

Nick:

channeled mark steel a little bit there as you,

Mark:

bit dinner. Whereas I've got a shit after challenge channel, Sally crab, apple for the for the female razor in pieces. Sally but she she sells them

Nick:

I think normal.

Mark:

feminine language about softness suppleness.

Paul:

Curves.

Mark:

Snus.

Paul:

Yeah

Mark:

often with a very kind of, typically it's also done with this kind of a male serving, you're doing this to be more attractive because

Paul:

yeah,

Mark:

there for you have value kind of rhetoric that spatters our media, but

Paul:

To

Mark:

product, different tools of eyes.

Paul:

And different packaging, different kind of handles

Nick:

pink and

Paul:

naming.

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. They will think tax.

Nick:

Yeah. The if you've got two different Gillette, rays one's aimed at a woman, it'll be pink and cost.

Paul:

yeah, but is it me? But those adverts for those razors, I want the women's razors because that seems to give like a baby smooth

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

But the men's,

Nick:

The men is it will rip your fucking head off, but you will, you a

Paul:

It's kinda

Mark:

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Very often. I'll a lot for certain, like I, I use perfumes instead of colognes and I used The female oriented as falls antiperspirants because they smell nice. I want to smell fresh

Paul:

nice. Yeah. Not like a tobacco,

Nick:

yeah.

Paul:

leathery Bit of wood. Yeah.

Nick:

sandalwood and tobacco.

Mark:

don't get me wrong. I do like those, both those fragrances too, but yeah,

Paul:

that yeah.

Mark:

but.

Paul:

Yeah, it does. It does give me the kinda light spray it on your armpit and then 10 seconds later you grow and and Mo

Nick:

Like a panel from the.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

So Go

Paul:

tone

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

back. I'll

Mark:

yeah, that's told advice. It's how you say things sorry, just sniffed again. That's going to be a lot. It's how you say things about your product or your design or your service? For example, I would argue apples. Apple products apple operate, operating systems to be more specific, to be geared more towards and casual users. Whereas windows operating systems tends to focus more on either developer centric or business. Individuals essentially both operating systems. One could argue, fulfill very similar functions, but again, completely different demographics which is mainly communicated through that tone of voice and that branded

Paul:

Totally. Tony. It's interesting. Yeah. And colors as well, play into this as well. We, on kinda like the pink and the razor blades I jest, but, essentially that's it as well, what colors and what colors say things about. this is where the fine

Nick:

Yeah,

Paul:

between tone of voice and design

Nick:

This is what I was just gonna say. What do you think it is then? Because tone of voice to me is in my realm, it's the written word, obviously certain brands will use spoken as well for adverts or whatever it is that they're doing. If they're taking place on different mediums and. Do you, is it just words or is there some overlap into imagery in tone of voice?

Paul:

The, yes, there is a little bit of an overlap. And I say it's a fine line because, it's that what you want to convey. So let's go back to the if you wanted and comic strip, if you had a photo on your website or web in your app, and you could put speech bubble on it and put your tone of voice in that speech bubble, it's essentially the same as that fo photo. So what's that photo

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

is very along the lines of tone of voice. And that's why I say it's a very fine line, but then design language for me then comes into, What you want your term voice to do. So is your company, focused on portraying wheelchair users, portraying blind people? Is it portraying, know, a good mix of racial kind of people those pictures or is it, know, is it the other way around, do you want to just show, builders on your photos that is a little bit tone of voice, but the design language is the style of the photos and it's so if you choose black and white photos, that's your design language. But I think language is it's the unwritten stuff. That you get as well. So it's all like the, what the colors do, the functionality of things, the rounded, if you want rounded buttons or square buttons or something in between, the design language is all those things. It's the typography, it's the spacing. And it's how things flow together. And I think design language is a lot harder to pin down and put, and go that this is,

Nick:

It's hard to do it without documentation and examples. Yeah. So your design language is the culmination of the decisions you've made about your brand in your imagery, your design system, your UI, and stuff like that. That is your design language. And just like a normal language. You can't talk about that until it's decided really or point to an example, like the language of French sounds French and the language of English sounds English. And without those two examples, you're just talking about people making sounds with no point of reference. Really? So it is the same thing, but

Mark:

like off the back of that, what you find with design line, I suppose this is also tone of voice actually. But there is, you have at the local level. Also what happens in your are perhaps for your product, you also have something that happens on a more. And a lot of design language can start with the conventions people already understand within a particular interface or something like that, such as meaning calls if you look at a refresh are they loading buffer and stuff like that? A lot of the no more far more fully understood. Symbols and design language. I think that starts to form the basis if that in immediate versus for a lot of, but you

Nick:

Okay.

Mark:

you're smiling in a fashion.

Nick:

So at, on, on my end, you just go in well so I, and then you whipped it out and it was all over my face and chest and I , so

Mark:

It's

Nick:

was,

Mark:

playing.

Nick:

yeah,

Paul:

But it sounded like you were self censoring.

Mark:

Can you hear me? Am I breaking?

Paul:

Okay. So thanks.

Nick:

we had cough perfectly, but everything around that fucking spotty.

Mark:

don't touch anything.

Nick:

Sounds like a connector. Oh, you've just gone. You've just gone for good now.

Paul:

yeah.

Nick:

But yeah, I always gone. It's gone. Always back. Yeah. You're back. You're back. You're back. You're back.

Paul:

again. Talk

Nick:

And you've got, oh, I've got a, I've got a warning on you on your recording, a warning on you, warning

Paul:

That's

Nick:

your recording. There's a warning on ya Ricard then

Paul:

And it's not

Nick:

it's not

Paul:

Tombo

Nick:

yeah. They getting songs around the UX. Tombo now.

Paul:

I know.

Nick:

so yeah so design language versus sort of device. I think it is a different thing, but it's it's this thing the reality. So when someone invented and introduced the is back when someone invented and introduced the idea of tone, a voice, it just like everything else in the corporate landscape, there will have been like a very specific definition of meaning around it. And then. A person coins, a term to mean something. And then that filters down through through talks and, like your Ted talks and stuff like that into workplaces. And then people within the workplaces who watched half of that Ted talk, grab this idea and start talking about it in the business. And it soon becomes like diluted and misinterpreted. So in reality, in the real world, tone of voice probably does include things like design language and, design and your design system and stuff. But I think when it was originally when it was originally created and dropped into the workplace, it probably didn't. So yeah, if, if you're being pedantic about it, I think it is just words, but that's probably not the reality in people's understanding now. I think it bleeds into all sorts of stuff.

Mark:

Just.

Paul:

Yeah. I think my only problem. Yeah. I like that definition words, it's words, cuz I think lot of people use tone of voice and design language

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

And when people go, not the tone of voice when about image or an illustration style and might have some kind of. Bearings, but essentially that's more design language and that's how if all the if all your that kind of similar style, that's your design language and it's the of those little things make up stuff. And I think to, to somewhat what design language should be is the intuitiveness the consistency of a product. And, without a design language, you just don't have that. And I think I was talking about this the other day at work and like we were talking about people in sprints, people out or sprints and stuff like that and we can consistency and, things like that. And one of the thing, if you do have these siloed teams and you don't have a design language, you. have design for that team. You have a design for that team. You have a design for that team and you soon get tech debt.

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

design debt, and you have, someone speaking French, someone's speaking Spanish, someone's speaking Portuguese, and it's all similar and it's all noise, as you said it earlier, which was so nicely, but all sounds, they're pretty much the same alphabet, but can you get people to understand it?

Nick:

And you're having to, you're having to reiterate redo every sentence because it's in a language. Whereas if you all just learn how to speak, Aspiro you'd all get on much better.

Paul:

yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Mark:

you guys hear me now?

Nick:

yeah.

Mark:

Just so you're aware.

Paul:

You're back. Yeah. Yeah. You're back.

Mark:

So hopefully my, yeah. thank you. Thank hopefully my just very well disciplined crowd we have today to cut that clapping. So short.

Nick:

Yeah, I was just thinking, do you reckon design language is like the mother term, like the all encompassing term and tone a voice belongs to that? Or do you reckon actually like brand guidelines is the bigger term and design language and tone a voice fits into that.

Mark:

I don't know necessarily if, either quite encompass. I think one thing is important with this is who owns part.

Nick:

Yeah.

Mark:

and I think very often when it comes to your tone of voice, unless you have, this can be done in a number of ways, I can imagine primarily, especially being used primarily as a marketing tool, it'll give your marketing and your creative services team in charge of that. But there will be a

Nick:

cool.

Mark:

for what happened or there, in my opinion, there are ought to be a lot of crossover. example, if you have tutorials in your in your app, or are or even something like a chat bot, something that could arguably be handled by the development for, in the product team, you probably, if you don't have dedicated UX writers, you will probably defer. Your tone of voice guidelines as written by your marketers as a place to start. And I'd say the opposite

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

for design language. So design language should predominantly be what happens in your interface and how people understand, the visual connections between components and layouts and patterns, et cetera. But I think that marketing should be able to take some of that. However much, I'm not sure, but some of that at least to apply to any co they and stuff like that. So

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah. And vice versa and yeah, I think that, again, by speaking from past experiences, that's sometimes frustrating because again, About that people speaking different languages, say marketing are speaking Spanish. UX team are speaking Portuguese very similar, actually, one button is on the websites like that one button in your interfaces like that. Why even in, I could understand in the past, but nowadays when know, are literally using exactly the same languages on the website to the interfaces. is that not one code base? Why is that? What one design and why we have to have this bun fight say, know, my button is better or, know, this button's better, should we say let's combine the best things put the best button forward on everything. And I think sometimes the, Things that go off in the web don't work for interfaces or the scale of interfaces, or, you think kinda this big brushy, in your face brochure where things would, you know, buttons that try and sell you every set step of the way doesn't work in a, an interface, but actually the buttons can have a lot in common and they can have the same, especially like with Figma and variations and stuff like that. You can create, quite quickly, variations and have a website button, change the padding and change the type got your interface button, there shouldn't be that much more to it. And then, and people get precious about stuff like this and oh no, we do the, we do that. Now we do that. And it's one company just do the same fucking button, save the company money. I don't get it.

Mark:

can get very precious about ownership, can't they?

Paul:

True. That's another podcast in itself.

Nick:

Make a note of that one, you there listening at home, make a note of that one.

Mark:

down in your copy books now.

Nick:

Tweet it to us.

Paul:

that's just a mental note for when you listen back to the,

Mark:

I

Paul:

own podcast link.

Mark:

I meant those three

Nick:

yeah, I'm gonna say if I to it, no one would.

Paul:

Yeah. Design language. Yeah. And I think it's yeah, but I, it was interest cuz interesting. I saw a post and put this is the design language. And then on the next. They did this like carousel thing on LinkedIn and we seen them, they said I've defined the design language for my company.

Nick:

then the next slide

Paul:

the was a slider with corporate and fun. And then the next one was like engaging

Mark:

Engaging our what? Who wants

Nick:

It's the rapture.

Paul:

Dogs engaging in dogs or, know, cats,

Nick:

Let's should we have a, should we have an ad break whilst the dog's going? Absolutely fucking bat shit crazy.

mediaboard_video-1:

Did you ever find that you're wasting all your Sufi gravy because you have no means of consuming it while here I am. led to save the day this episode's podcast sponsor

Nick:

that jump schedule the day.

Mark:

Seamless

Nick:

That's a . That was a word for my sponsors there. Max sta bio AED, bio market Bolton AADE

Mark:

Byrum.

Nick:

AED is the AADE I used to work when I was a, when I worked in a art shop

Mark:

I see.

Nick:

a hundred years ago

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so I know exactly the kind of exercise you are referring to the Paul, when you mention these I've defined our tone of voice. I want it to be engaging as opposed to what

Paul:

I know. But I did

Nick:

that,

Paul:

though for, to make that point because. What the fuck is

Nick:

And to.

Paul:

you know, and it engage? Yeah. I know. to a MOS, is it engaging to a blue whale? I don't know. And then the do that and kind the designed it really nicely, these sliders. And I thought as soon as I saw that, I thought this is not fucking design language. This is just you pissing around because you've

Nick:

On the Nielsen Norman group

Paul:

this yeah, maybe. Yeah. Or that the tea talk they went to cause they didn't listen to the D and the X see, yeah. Yeah. And somebody somewhere has done a really nice job and they thought, oh, this is brilliant. This is gonna work. And this is design Lang cuz it's got

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

language

Nick:

So it must be written

Paul:

and I think

Nick:

but

Paul:

the, that's the confusing thing. Isn't it? Because it's

Nick:

Yeah, but it's also got the word design in it as well. It's because it's a design language. It's not a language because that's a different thing.

Paul:

It,

Nick:

not it. It's not you

Paul:

Hiro,

Nick:

If so, if you put together a design language you couldn't communicate to anyone using the contents of the design language. It's not a real language. It's just a set of guidelines with a nice name.

Mark:

That's the next hot tech.

Paul:

Yeah, I suppose I,

Nick:

I know if you a really robust icon library,

Paul:

a really

Nick:

I'm sure you could communicate

Paul:

I'm sure you could communicate quite well.

Nick:

yeah,

Mark:

icon

Nick:

the,

Mark:

be fair.

Nick:

apple, apple have got quite a good, robust icon library in the form of emojis, but I guarantee we couldn't communicate entirely in emojis. We could probably get a message across and it'd probably descend into like sexual innuendo quite quickly,

Mark:

but then again, so does most of our spoken in communication, so that would actually be on brand. So I'm not there. That's not a detractors. It's

Nick:

not de

Mark:

Four rather than again.

Nick:

rather than him

Mark:

I take your point. I

Nick:

a certain point.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

had no intention to follow this off. I've completely forgotten what point I was going to make.

Nick:

Well, Anna, this, if to a first time listener, this is very on brand Faster horses. Not that we've got any first time listeners this far in

Mark:

no true.

Nick:

anyone, anyone listening to this is the long haul, aren't they?

Mark:

yeah. I generally forgot what I was gonna say.

Nick:

Yeah.

Paul:

took about yourself again.

Nick:

It very much feels that way. Like I'm in it for the long haul.

Paul:

Oh, but yeah, those yeah. You, and when you try and boil down design language or tone of voice to one word or another,

Mark:

essentially, what,

Paul:

hard to do.

Nick:

You need an emoji. That's

Mark:

person was saying. Wasn't my design language is engaging. My design language is modern. My design language is professional or sophisticated. What they're actually saying. My desire language is what I preconceive sophisticated to be. And you have to guess what that is.

Nick:

but also a lot of the time, these people frustratingly are like coming up with what they think it should be. Whereas, one of, one of the conversations I've had recently is if we're designing a, like a new brand or a new tone voice, or we're looking at the tone voice, shouldn't we talk to the people who use the product and see what they expect and what they find engaging and what they find encouraging, or, makes them feel comfortable and safe using whatever the product is like, isn't that important rather than someone just.

Mark:

because I am paid a lot of money. So listen to me, if it helps. I'm also male and white, so I know best I think's the answer, answer to that. If you I can explain to you how I really like the idea of of this app. and almost as much as I like my yacht. So that means I'm really invested and I'll be more invested than someone just using it like a smoke.

Nick:

Now I was showing it to my wife last night and she said that, she used to have, I got now, do you remember the goldfish story

Mark:

I do. Yes.

Nick:

episode? I don't know what episode that be honest, but

Mark:

that, yeah.

Nick:

was it from the the UX files

Paul:

good.

Nick:

go back and listen to that Fox. That was a classic Mick moment.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

beautiful example of this phenomenon of highest person in the room know best high.

Nick:

Hip

Paul:

I, think that

Nick:

highest paid person in the room.

Paul:

Yeah. But I

Nick:

This is opinion

Paul:

yeah.

Nick:

grenades. Now, if you ever watch Jersey shore, that's a very different thing.

Mark:

Can I just say, I am now doubly

Paul:

I did watch Jersey show. exactly

Nick:

Yeah.

Mark:

myself to that torture voluntarily. And

Nick:

David did eye weirdly, like everything I know about that show is by accident

Mark:

Yeah. One really

Paul:

yeah.

Mark:

you that knowledge because

Nick:

On them one way.

Mark:

to, to knowing it.

Paul:

yeah I'm just in this amazing Photoshop filter on the top of my

Nick:

It's beautiful. You've got the uni, the Unbound universe on the left and

Mark:

the.

Nick:

and the J Abrams movie on the right.

Mark:

thinking, of the director

Paul:

know.

Mark:

Flares?

Paul:

yeah. You wouldn't get this on PlayStation four or Xbox. Anyway, grenades, just go back to grenades. Grenades are generally the people where you've done your research. You spoke to people, got all your data. You've got a really good idea. You've

Nick:

They come in,

Paul:

tested them out come in literally take the pin out the grenade and blow all that Up

Nick:

a swoop and poop.

Mark:

I've

Paul:

to do.

Mark:

couple of names for people like that.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

to be saying them even on

Nick:

I'm not

Mark:

But yeah, I'm very familiar with that, with the grenade as you quite placidly call it.

Paul:

Yeah, I was PC. Yeah. yeah.

Nick:

cool.

Paul:

how you talk to customers,

Mark:

them.

Paul:

but

Nick:

I disagree with them. Yeah.

Mark:

250

Nick:

times

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

is what I've been told.

Nick:

this is how I use the thing and therefore everyone else probably uses it the same way.

Mark:

which is sir, because this person probably prefers to be called, sir. But we are designing, A, dunno, hamster wheel. So

Nick:

Yeah, make it look like this, sir. That's windows 98. Why is there a new there an update?

Mark:

I did actually have something like a previous place I worked, I was the branding for a product launch. It was like a, outdoor garden room thing, a shed, if you will. But they didn't wanna call them shed. They were made out of I think it was called a Luca bond, which is this kind of it's quite a nice, cladding material. And they kept on saying over and over again that they wanted it to be very premium. That was the buzzword. And then when, because that word

Nick:

And then when,

Mark:

anything. I.

Paul:

Okay.

Mark:

in by definition it might mean something that's very nice. Or maybe something that you pay for. What do you say

Nick:

An amount to be paid for a contract of insurance, a sum added to an ordinary price or charge a sum added to interest or wages, a bonus relating to, or denoting a commod or of superior quality and therefore a higher price. There you go.

Mark:

to price and monies. But when I was asking, For what the fuck they meant by premium, they said like BMW. It's yeah. Okay. I'm just gonna go outside to me, BMW shed and see how they've designed their. So yeah, and then we tried to do premium garden

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

and yeah, it enjoyed some limited success.

Nick:

Is a premium garden room, just not a house.

Mark:

I suppose it depends on the size of your garden.

Nick:

If you're gonna build a premium you've got sheds and garden rooms. And then anything else better than that is just the building that you live in, which is the house. Isn't it.

Mark:

I'd say that's probably accurate. Yeah. And these, on the website, cuz the idea just came from the fact that the guy who owned the company or you really love this, the guy who owned the company had an outhouse, had an outdoor room and had just redecorated. Thus for some reason, felt that made him qualified start a business building actual rooms themselves.

Paul:

It's because he off with the proving we paid

Mark:

a

Paul:

for.

Mark:

shed, I want to spend 12 grand on it. Because the business cards come in a metal box or something like that it was a very surreal experience, but exactly the point that we've been making that there was absolutely no cohesion between what was being asked for understood, what would work well with people who bought, she had people who had space that they wanted to

Nick:

I've got a question. What time is it?

Paul:

Cool. Cool.

Mark:

That was seamless.

mediaboard_video-2:

means it's time for you. X Dumbo, a segment of the show where we pick a random product object, service, or place from the Tomball. And. And discuss it's terrible UX.

Mark:

That was seamless.

Paul:

Oh, I'll tell you what that looked

Mark:

it did to me and

Paul:

like. A tiny Nick spinning a

Nick:

And it was on completely the wrong side of the screen that I, for me, but

Paul:

I so I, you know what, now you've got control, can't get my final pointed my final point.

Nick:

sister? Go on then

Paul:

no

Nick:

I think

Paul:

That's right.

Nick:

quite nicely,

Paul:

I think I think we've summed it up quite nicely.

Nick:

shall I.

Mark:

faster Peron an extended cut may or may not appear where Paul elucidates, his final point.

Nick:

Oh he may post on Twitters on LinkedIn. You can find Paul on LinkedIn, under Paul Wilshire on LinkedIn

Mark:

You'll see him, in the comment section of all slider based design talks,

Paul:

I was only

Mark:

just follow the swearing and you'll be fine. Have we got our, a

Paul:

Oh dear. Yeah, no, I know. Sorry to interrupt the flow. I didn't really have a last point. I just thought,

Mark:

I cough, I laugh. It's like some sixth circle of hell. Because thank you. That makes

Paul:

it could

Nick:

Yeah, very helpful. Thanks, Paul.

Paul:

all right.

Nick:

Oh wait, do we need to do a song don't we're still doing this.

Mark:

okay.

Nick:

Do we some music? So how do you, how do we do music?

Mark:

no,

Paul:

Hello?

Mark:

we always

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah. Get some music.

Nick:

Always do the girl from E

Paul:

Do

Nick:

from EBA. The girl from MEbA walks by and all the boys, they go

Mark:

Tom Moola.

Nick:

UX time.

Mark:

You could have they don't all the boys go. Ah, isn't that? Isn't.

Nick:

Yeah. Oh yeah. Somewhere. Oh,

Mark:

oh,

Nick:

dunno what it is. GU get your rat.

Mark:

never go to they're horrible. The

Nick:

It's

Mark:

are horrible.

Nick:

get your rat out for UX. The red can select what subject we have a, yeah, a trained rat that grabs the of paper from inside the UX. That's what I was talking about. Guys. Wash, get your mind out of the gutter.

Mark:

gutter, but I'm gazing at the stars.

Paul:

it's oh, I it also as well that I think there's a slight,

Nick:

I think in America,

Paul:

translation, I think in America. When you talk about rats,

Nick:

like a grass, like a snitch.

Paul:

what you are talking about. Nick.

Nick:

a snatch,

Mark:

Oh,

Paul:

No.

Nick:

Rat. What do you,

Paul:

Nick.

Mark:

Oh, is it

Paul:

Yeah. It's like a

Nick:

heard that before

Paul:

of art.

Nick:

needed.

Mark:

Urban dictionary. That one

Paul:

Oh yeah. Citation needed. Yeah.

Nick:

If you call someone a rat, you mean that they are, you are angry with them or dislike them often because they have cheated you or arbitrary you. Unfortunately,

Mark:

we're all wrong.

Nick:

I five

Mark:

my own

Nick:

points deducted from Hufflepuff.

Mark:

we're

Nick:

So today we're talking about,

Mark:

about?

Nick:

on. We're having what we're.

Mark:

on the crest with a rat. It really

Paul:

here go,

Mark:

continue do

Nick:

so today we are talking about the UX of tapas. That is the UX of tapas.

Mark:

Okay. Okay.

Nick:

Mark's got strong opinions about this. You can tell

Mark:

approach? I'm

Nick:

Yeah.

Mark:

of tap. I've had some bloody awful time, however, and some splendid, tapas, but some Awful tapas.

Nick:

I need to, why is it every time we do this? There's I've got a, I've got a rant, like pre-GED about it. I've got, I really do have a problem with everything. So tapas now just literally means the mass ordering of food. Don't it? It could be any from any. Any cuisine of any country you go, oh, should we go out for some tapas and get like noodles and,

Mark:

So that sushi tap

Nick:

and like a fucking boiled egg. Yeah exactly. Yeah, but you go but like you go, you can go to a Greek restaurant or an Italian restaurant and they've got like a tap ass menu. Sure. And surely there's a, an equivalent word for tapas in Greece

Mark:

I

Paul:

Yep.

Mark:

it met, say in Greece and I think it's anti in Italian

Nick:

or is what's the shte then? Is that a place that does past

Mark:

I'm not sure.

Nick:

shte C it's spelled CIA. D yeah.

Paul:

Yeah.

Nick:

So the names,

Paul:

So, tap tapas,

Mark:

So

Nick:

yeah. So apparently the story is, or one of the stories that I've heard is that a bar somewhere in Spain millennia ago was plagued by flies and they used to serve drinks and then to stop flies, getting in the drinks, they put a little plate on the top of the drink. And on one day someone was sat at the bar with a plate on the drink and someone who works in the bar came out and just put a piece of food on top of the plate and was like, There you go, that's for you. Enjoy. And then that became a thing. And then they got rid of the drink and just started serving food on little plates. Basically.

Mark:

sounds like

Nick:

That's

Mark:

shit. I just I'm just gonna share, my, hole really in that story for me is this is a bar plague by flies that you think. Okay, I'm just gonna help our fly problem by putting food top of the

Nick:

no. There was a step, there was a step in between food and the flies

Paul:

Yeah.

Nick:

it was

Paul:

They got a

Nick:

And that is how the plague started.

Mark:

Ah, yes. And

Nick:

And then, yeah, and she swallowed them all

Paul:

they got an old

Nick:

Died.

Mark:

but

Paul:

yeah.

Mark:

before she died, she did a poo

Nick:

They

Paul:

Yeah.

Nick:

Ji.

Paul:

that's the birth of tapas?

Mark:

So surely served that and tapas oh, So there is a type of something like tapas In most cultures, England, I think is one of the latest adopters and we just call it small players. I suppose buffet. Yeah. Buffet is actually American. it was American phenomenon that came over in the early 19 hundreds into the U into the UK.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

you go. Citation needed on that, but that's what I learned from an episode of Don a once So it must be true. Maggie, Smith's saying it,

Nick:

Jesus.

Paul:

I'm surprised you can't, you don't kinda like when you're watching downtown ABI, is that kind of like watching your real life? Just play out?

Mark:

Just me going well, I do, the

Nick:

what?

Mark:

watch it. It's not for the drama, watching paint dry in real time. It's not a great deal

Nick:

was literally, I don't know if it's one of the episode or one of the films, but the, apparently there's a storyline where they can't find a shoe.

Mark:

I can fully believe it. I quite like Don I've not watched it in a long time, but I used to, and I quite enjoyed it, but I do have to admit not a lot happens in it.

Nick:

I'd rather put an incredibly sharp pencil at my nose and then head, but table

Paul:

the,

Mark:

Maggie Smith has some cracking lines in it though. She's a babe. you know, that, that makes it all worthwhile.

Nick:

Tapas, anyone

Mark:

And I think the French equivalent would probably be Charu. If we were gonna over pronounce char the

Nick:

the French too.

Mark:

I think that's

Nick:

And that is that's like a beauty pageants for sharks.

Mark:

It. It's you get all the sharks together. You put on a diving suit,

Nick:

the cutest

Mark:

you get a lipstick and you put lipstick on them and see you as the prettiest. And,

Paul:

they have a swim seat?

Mark:

far the sharks have value. So when you make a shark soup out of them, you can charge more that's

Nick:

that's called premium.

Mark:

shark fin soup tap dish right there.

Nick:

We're folded in on the cells,

Paul:

ah,

Nick:

like a fucking Mobious strip.

Paul:

like

Nick:

I would be.

Paul:

now I've I'm with you. I've got a few book bears

Nick:

the bloody Spanish in general.

Paul:

general small dish.

Nick:

I've fews about tapas, the bloody Spanish.

Paul:

no

Nick:

yeah.

Paul:

I love the spell. But no Yeah I, one of my being, being vegetarian, one of my massive bug bears about tapas is that everybody can eat my dishes so that

Nick:

me,

Paul:

if

Nick:

I

Paul:

says, oh, let's get some tapas for me. I go fuck off and run to the Hills. Overdoing it, cuz it usually what that generally means for me is cuz I'm polite and

Nick:

would.

Paul:

I'm

Mark:

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul:

I don't want to have some sort of conflict in my small dished meal. I, and then people come in and like my potato Bravo and they're yeah, no, yeah.

Nick:

Say potato. And I say, Braas, let's call the whole thing. Tapas

Paul:

And they come in with the bloody meaty dishes and the meaty forks and the meaty thing, and they stick it in my

Mark:

they dipping

Paul:

and then goes,

Mark:

as well.

Paul:

and they go eating it with my bloody, the

Nick:

a meaty.

Paul:

Yeah. You, the meaty forks. So they're it in. They're going like, oh, do you want some of that? And I go,

Mark:

Yeah.

Paul:

really, cuz you've contaminated the whole fucking thing. At least it's only a

Nick:

With your

Paul:

but you contaminated

Nick:

idea of meat,

Paul:

Little,

Nick:

I got in an argument with someone once did, I did some work once lit and to say, thank you, the boss got us all pizzas. And it got like a margarita and loads of other meaty ones. And unbeknownst to me, one of the people at the I'm gonna call it a par, even though it was like

Mark:

Yeah.

Nick:

Was a vegetarian and I was eating. The margarita. And they were like, why are you eating my margarita when you've got loads of meat, pizzas? And I was just like, sorry, it's your margarita because you are vegetarian. And therefore by default, any food within a 50 yard radius without meat on is automatically yours, just because I do eat meat doesn't mean that I have to eat meat with every meal. Perhaps I like a margarita pizza as well, which I do anywhere. I digress.

Mark:

I think that's surprisingly central to the point.

Paul:

I,

Mark:

you can put, the

Paul:

no, I.

Mark:

tapas is that you are sharing it and Is a world of problems. I'm quite a stickler for

Nick:

But you're not,

Mark:

that's.

Nick:

seem that's the British element I think, is that BEC it's like when you go out for a cur and it's oh, I think the idea is you order a bit you order Lords and have a bit of everything. And I don't think that is the idea.

Mark:

is.

Nick:

and I think that is just a an idea that like greedy drunk, British people have introduced into like Korean tapas by extension.

Mark:

very feasible. Yeah. I do think there's an element at least of sharing in the more

Paul:

yeah.

Mark:

natural tapas phenomenon, as opposed to the bastardized British drunk version. Because I always find that when I'm in that sharing situation, a portion of my gray matter dedicated to monitoring what I've eaten. And what everyone else is eaten because I'm hyper aware

Nick:

To be fair.

Mark:

spending an equal amount on this food. And I don't

Nick:

Oh, you mean

Mark:

Yeah. I

Nick:

get your money's.

Mark:

eat quite a lot.

Paul:

Yeah.

Mark:

In and

Paul:

yeah.

Mark:

four of those Brata pieces dunno some other your potatoes Brava. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be writing your name down in a book letter and it.

Nick:

I'm the one who's always left, like Hoover up the leftovers though. So I always do well at the end. We it's only leftovers in as much as it's the end of the meal

Mark:

not going

Nick:

and there's still some food left. I've not gone in like the back.

Mark:

to the next table and taking stuff off the plate.

Paul:

I've still got the, I've still got the fly ridden. still got, I've got the fly ridden bar left in my

Nick:

have we come, We got anywhere near coming up with a problem or solution or product that we can sell? No. Since the sharing and pricing problem, isn't it.

Paul:

I, think

Nick:

So like a tapas calculator?

Paul:

pricing. Yeah.

Mark:

live like monitors, portions, as you have them.

Nick:

Like an, a tapas Abacus, a Tabba as

Mark:

tap tapas, Abacus to Passa bookers.

Nick:

Tabba tab. Tabba biggest

Paul:

Yeah,

Mark:

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. One of them

Nick:

Taba Tabasco, tapas, TAAS

Mark:

Tous. anyone skipped

Nick:

you go.

Mark:

there's.

Nick:

Yeah. Any, anyone at all thinking that they're I almost said MP3 player there.

Mark:

Don't worry. Your wireless isn't playing up.

Paul:

on

Nick:

you're home listening to this on your zoom,

Paul:

oh yeah.

Nick:

that's deep cut in it.

Mark:

one of those is

Paul:

The zoom that's a

Nick:

It's a small electronic device made in the early century. Earlie 20th century. It to compete with the, I,

Paul:

Yeah, it was

Nick:

It was the iPod killer.

Mark:

actually in the

Paul:

95

Mark:

Cause if it

Paul:

of

Mark:

century, it means it would've been invented about 1910.

Nick:

It'd been 19. It been steam powered

Mark:

A,

Nick:

one, those

Mark:

yes. yeah. What they call a gram form. of them yeah. Yeah. Just with a spool on the side,

Paul:

Yeah. Yeah.

Mark:

TOAs a

Nick:

a

Mark:

AAS

Nick:

AUSAs

Mark:

a te tapas, because I think I prefer

Paul:

I like,

Mark:

even worse to pronounce. Because

Nick:

tap, Aus, tap, Aus,

Mark:

tap,

Nick:

tap, Aus

Mark:

ABA,

Nick:

tap. That's funny to say I can't imagine being Atman, just being like Alexa, skip forward five minutes and it's still like

Mark:

still is

Nick:

tap Aus. Right now. Alexa, shut. To pub, to Go

Mark:

Hello, it's me. Mark Steeler. Are you sick of people stealing your peppers and your potato or Brava they are filthy meat now you can monitor them and charge a spend only two pound 50 on your 14 pound portion of Patta. A sorry. BOTAs Braas our new tapas Abacus BEUs te. Tap ha tapas. Buckers sorry about that. My machine went itself 40 50. Get yours today. I love you.

Nick:

about. That's how much it that's how much it costs to get like a proof a prototype made at the factory. And he only ever gets one made.

Mark:

just make any more money. He just spends his like his doll money on it. That's it? His universal credit. noise

Nick:

Oh,

Mark:

by the way. It's the sound of Theasa the tab.

Paul:

Dear

Nick:

To basketball. Sounds like a friendly cat. Sounds like a friendly cat from an.

Paul:

tos bus.

Nick:

TV show

Paul:

Oh, thinking it would be a spicy bus

Nick:

what?

Mark:

don't know how it's gonna work, least

Nick:

Move the beads from left to right red beads, Mead bra green beads made pad peppers and the yellow beans. The yellow bead can mean anything you like

Mark:

please.

Nick:

long as it's not.

Mark:

sub

Nick:

So

Mark:

162 rules for your tab. Scopist acid Wells. Ah, I

Nick:

There is

Mark:

Pat's brother. I dunno, whose voice that

Nick:

AAS.

Mark:

it was just mine. was his mine.

Nick:

There is AAS often regarded for excellence. Hello, he doesn't do anything.

Mark:

there. Give the source of that ness. And you'll be able to join us in our fever. I have 10 minutes before

Paul:

yeah.

Mark:

at the cinema starts the film I'm going to see. Not the film I'm in.

Nick:

Oh

Mark:

yeah. Yes. Yeah

Nick:

in that case,

Mark:

do

Paul:

I was gonna

Nick:

I'll take us.

mediaboard_video-3:

That's

Paul:

to scan skid.

mediaboard_video-3:

horses. If you like the show, please like subscribe and leave a review. It really does help. can join us on page three on.com/faster horses from one pound a month. Chat UX from bowler and the hottest new products from bolt Malcolm on mark stealer special. Thanks to James match for our theme. I'm mark, Nick Tomlinson, followers. Faster horses, UX, and we'll catch you in two weeks for more horses.

Mark:

Nick. Have you been licking various things every time I've been speaking? Yes,

Nick:

Yes, I'm always licking something or other when I'm within the sound of your voice

Mark:

time this week, someone one said that to me. Yeah. Yeah.

Paul:

Yeah. Can, we have a Patriot tear? 49

Nick:

steel.

Paul:

please.

Mark:

You get of every single product we make, which,

Nick:

Oh, that's amazing.

Mark:

might be quite a Fe of delivery. But

Paul:

Yeah,

Mark:

the tap, the.

Nick:

That's for 49 quid.

Mark:

Abacus the tab.

Paul:

you can get it.

Mark:

And that can just be an Abacus with several of the beans missing or something.

People on this episode

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Paul Wilshaw

Host