Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology
Brighten your day – learn about user experience, design, products, gaming and technology. With entertaining and funny chat that goes off on unexpected tangents about life, everyday pain points and hilarious solutions.
80% random, 20% user experience (UX) and user interfaces (UI)*
Your hosts Mark, Nick and Paul discuss a different subject around design, UX, UI, business and technology, with the occasional special guest thrown in for good measure.
Ironically as Henry Ford almost definitely did not say: “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.” – we try and put the user back into the experience.
Learn from industry leaders about their experiences and how to deal with them.
We'll dip into the UX tombola to pick out a random hot topic to discuss, poke and prod.
Saddle up and join us for the wild ride of humour, experience and sound-proofing cushions that is Faster Horses.
*may contain nuts and the odd bit of swearing – sorry (not sorry!).
Support the show for a third of your daily coffee and get extra content and insights: https://www.patreon.com/FasterHorses
Get your swagger on with our cool design, gaming and topic-related, official Faster Horses show, merchandise: https://www.paulwilshaw.co.uk/shop
Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology
Wobble People | Complicated Systems, how to design the complex without taking out functionality?
<p>Complicated systems, in this episode we explore how to design complicated systems.</p>
</br></br>
<p>Who are the Wobble People?</p>
</br>
<p>What are complicated systems?</p>
</br>
<p>How do you factor in use beyond the happy path?</p>
</br>
<p>How do you cater for the needs of very different use cases?</p>
</br>
<p>How do you make the complex simple without dumbing the experience down?</p>
</br>
<p>All this and UX tombola – where we pick apart a random topic.</p>
</br>
All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses, a podcast about UX, UXR, UI design, products and technology (sometimes!)
🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler
👕 Get stickers and tees at https://www.paulwilshaw.com/shop/
The show is hosted by:
Paul Wilshaw
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilshaw/
and
Mark Sutcliffe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sutcliffemark/
If you want to suggest an idea, or join us on the show, send us a message 👆.
Hello, welcome to Faster Horses. This is series two of Faster Horses. If you've not heard of series one, do check it out. Uh, there's some great episodes on there, and this series is gonna be bigger, better, more exciting, more adventurous, and more random. So in this season, we've mixed it up and we've got three regular presenters now. So you've got myself, Paul Wilshaw, you've also got Nick Tomlinson and Mark Sutcliffe. And between the three of us, we'll be exploring with the occasional special guest everything from UX, UI, technology, front-end development, and things in between. In this episode, we're looking at complicated systems. What are complicated systems? How do you tackle those complicated systems? And what are the best ways of doing it? We look at research, design, and all the experience of everything complicated. And later in the show we've got UX Tombola, where we pick a random subject and look to solve the user experience of that with a bit of wackiness and design thinking outdoor sound.
SPEAKER_01:As handsome as ever.
SPEAKER_00:Right, well this is an audio format.
SPEAKER_01:I know. I just well now it's an asthma. Oh I've just made a connection there. ASMR ASMR is asthma. Pronounced phonetically. Maybe there's something in that.
SPEAKER_00:A lot of wheezing.
SPEAKER_01:Might do an intro while we're waiting for Paul. Like a shallow.
SPEAKER_00:Welcome to Faster Horses. With me Nick Tomlinson and of my special rider cycling.
SPEAKER_01:Oh dare me.
SPEAKER_00:So welcome to Faster Horses. I'm Nick.
SPEAKER_01:And I'm Mark.
SPEAKER_00:Paul will be along shortly, but I thought we'd just get the intro out of the way. So today we're talking about complicated systems. This is a subject that Mark brought to the table. We did a little vote for it on our socials, on my LinkedIn and on the Twitter for the podcast, which is at Fasterhorses UX. Go give us a follow. And this was the clear winner. I thought it was going to be something else actually. I thought it was going to be is UX an art or a science, which I'm looking forward to talking about another time. But when I went I went back to check the votes, and this one was a clear winner, so this is what we're talking about today.
SPEAKER_01:I was I was subtly surprised that it was a winner, but ultimately it's one of the things I've been struggling most with in UX at the minute, and I think it's probably the most kind of pressing developmental part. Mick and I had our nuptials back in 1963. I think it's uh significant to mention at this uh at this in this month, Pride month. So you know thank God that's changed.
SPEAKER_00:Happy Pride everyone. Oh do you say happy pride everyone, or do you say happy pride LGBTQ plus?
SPEAKER_01:Um I don't think speaking as a gay man, I don't think we're here to exclude anyone. Yeah. To be honest, we really need all the support we can get. So yeah, happy pride everyone.
SPEAKER_00:I think is I think it should be a happy pride, exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, nice.
SPEAKER_00:So yeah, um I was just saying we were we did a little vote on the socials uh on Twitter at Fasterhorses UX um and the clear winner was complicated systems. I think a close second was is UX an art or a science. So I was just saying I'm looking forward to talking about that in future, but that's not today's topic. So Mark, you brought it to the table, didn't you? What um I did. What why? Why?
SPEAKER_01:Because it is confusing lol, basically. Um I think the the way that technology is going and the way that um UX is obviously going along with it, the first kind of questions that UX ans UX answers excuse me, the first kind of questions that UX answered seem to be the simpler ones. Uh and I know that's a gross generalization, but if you were to go on uh dribble, because we love to mention that as a point of reference, or any uh uh any kind of portfolio work, not all portfolio work obviously, but uh the most mainstream, you'll find that it's serving um specific needs for general users. So that is to say um you might get a delivery type application which is a specific uh need, i.e. getting food or groceries delivered to a general user, which is Johnny Green fella, who doesn't know what uh isn't in isn't any in any kind of specialized domain, he's just got a simple need, um, and so it's been made as easy as possible and as accessible as possible. But what we're finding certainly in um our fields of work professionally where we work as UX designers, um, is that we have the opposite of that, which is very specialized users who have very general goals. So there uh an example would be um take take um the software conversation we were having uh in one of our previous podcasts. We were talking as UX designers, a specialized domain, um, about software that enabled to to enabled us to achieve uh rather broad goals. So when we launch Figma, we might have a a an end in mind, but realistically it's not as defined as say getting food delivered to your door. So I wanted to bring up the idea of the complex systems um that come out of that specialised domain with a general goal and um and basically how it differs uh and what we can do to crack open those complex systems.
SPEAKER_03:So good point. I think you know kind of what what is a complex system, and uh it's kind of like it's uh it's quite fundamental that a lot of things are complex systems, but then there's uh the complex UX problems as well on top of that. So something like specialist software where you're trying to aim for real hardcore users is is really tricky, and especially when those users uh use your software for all manner of different things. I I suppose a good example of this would be something like an operating system where you can use an operating system one way and then somebody next to you will use it totally different, have different apps on it, and the whole experience changes 100% for for them. And it's kind of how you make those work in a much better way. I'm kind of I'm trying I'm trying to make this simple. Uh how you make these work for kind of like everybody without diluting the experience for everybody as well. And it's a tricky one, isn't it? It's a real tricky one.
SPEAKER_01:There comes an acknowledgement at the very outset of a of a approach in a complex bit of kit, a complex software solution, is that um with with perhaps the exception of um uh uh something like an operating system which has a general domain as well as a general kind of purpose within it. Um I think very often you have software that's specific to a particular field of work, field of operation. So for example, uh geolog geologists um or seismologists, is that the word, will have um software to keep accounts of their where they measure um obviously seismic activity, and likewise um biologists will keep track of marine life in um their software. Uh but what the what they then do with that software can be quite non-specific, so they might use it to predict trends and whatnot. So I think uh in those cases you you're starting off with quite a specific role, and so there comes an acknowledgement at the start that the persona you're dealing with um is very specialized. And I think that can that can uh get our backup as you exercise because we're so used to trying to think as as uh universally as possible.
SPEAKER_03:Definitely. I think there's there's there's also the the growing trend of designing things that there isn't a physical manifestation for. So, for example, artificial intelligence, machine learning, automation, all those kind of things, there isn't actually a real-world physical example you can map map that to, or like you know, and your old-fashioned skewer morphism, or you know, the new neomorphism that's uh the current trend, you know, and it's it's you can't really map it to a real-world experience because those things have never existed before, and it's how we deal with those, and that's really um well. I love a challenge like that, but it it's it's super complex because you know, kind of like um I'm not gonna do dis anyone. Here's the ice cream van if you can hear it. Yeah, it's got that one. Yeah, what what do you want?
SPEAKER_01:Um I'll have a uh oh, do they uh like any pots of sawbear?
SPEAKER_03:It's an ice cream van, Mark.
SPEAKER_00:I'll have three tracks of cock I'll have some I'll have some dodgy imported uh Lambert and Butler plays.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, you can you can have some some weed or 99. Yeah, I'll take all three I don't know when the last time you brought from an ice cream van but Jesus in one not thirty nine anymore.
SPEAKER_01:I have no frame of reference for that because I think um the last thing that ice cream people want to sell is ice cream.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's got to be the the lost leader of the ice cream van that, hasn't it?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I think so.
SPEAKER_00:Cans of tango and 25 quid bags of coke, probably are what's the end through the day.
SPEAKER_03:I like when you buy uh from an ice cream van and it says multi-pack, do not sell separately. Yeah, it's a classic.
SPEAKER_01:Just made in Londis for the walkers before the ship starts.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, when it's when it's in just a different language I'll have some some of that axe de urgence by place.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yes. Um totally forgot what I was saying now.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah Oh yes, you're talking about physical mapping. When you when you're talking about that, are you talking about like are you talking about like the way laymans interact with it and understand it because they've got no frame of reference for this stuff? Is that what you mean?
SPEAKER_03:anybody who anybody who interacts with it or anything, yeah, kind of like as designers we we love to put images, illustrations on things. How do you do that for without a shitty stock image reference of some bloody 1980s robot reference? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Which tends tends to just be visual noise at the end because it's not how digital workers operate, it's not how um they're executing tasks at all, so it tends to be a a crappy analogy.
SPEAKER_00:But is that is that not a f a floor diagram? Is that not a journey map, like a physical representation of a process?
SPEAKER_01:I think very often, yeah, and I think that that tends to be how they're used. And a journey map might analogly be translated into a uh something more of a physical world map type thing. I've seen that before.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Yeah, I think I think the flow map's really good for kind of like so there's so there's I suppose when you're doing a clump complex system, there's there's five levels to a complex system. So you've got all the integration, all the back end of the architecture, the systems, uh part of it, uh, and then that you know you need that for some sort of flow into kind of like where that service is in the UI or the UX, where the user it has any possible interaction with that, or whether they even do. Um, and then kind of it's all the information and how you present that, you know, think classic dashboards and graph charts, uh, and then you've got your intention based on that, and that's kind of more where your flow diagram, or for us anyway, those flow diagrams come in, and it's what the user wants to do, what's their goal and their broad task, or what they want to do, the decision making on that that we as UX design people are really concerned about, um, and that's really tricky with you know if it doesn't exist, how do you go about that? How do you liken that to a uh a real-world physical problem? You know, kind of e-commerce is it's it's pretty nice, you know. I'm not I'm not saying it's easy or I'm not gonna do anyone disjustice, but there's loads of uh data, there's loads of references, yeah. And before e-commerce, we were going to shops, so you know, and that's the same physical real-world interaction, but nobody kind of goes and say, Oh, I want a robot to do this magical task for me.
SPEAKER_00:You still still refer to that process in analogues, don't they? Like you still have a shopping cart or a basket or whatever.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's one of the biggest challenges there is that for UX designers specifically in this context, is that we're all pretty expert at shopping. We're all pretty expert at getting food delivered, ordering a cab, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03:Um not not ice cream vans, though.
SPEAKER_01:Not ice cream vans, no, that's hopeless there. Um but we can't reasonably be expected as experts, sorry, as UXers to become experts in the field or the domain that a complex system necessarily operates in. So to explain, you know, we can't expect if we're if we were working on that um seismologist software for measuring, tracking, etc. That kind of thing, we couldn't expect to become seismologists to understand the ins and outs of what what needs to work and how it needs to work. And I think that's a huge kind of um blocker almost for for how we create and inter and develop uh solutions in this in this field.
SPEAKER_00:Because um Do you not think that's a reasonable expectation? I I'd obviously you'd never become an expert, but the nature of someone employing you as a UX designer is that it's your job to go away and essentially learn as much as you as is reasonable to expect, maybe even more so, about a process. But like also you learn it by osmosis, well not osmosis, you learn it uh from doing like interviews, user interviews and stuff, don't you? Absolutely. Second hand.
SPEAKER_01:I think this is this is part of it. So um I think yes and no uh in answer to your question. So I don't think it's reasonable for the um the seismologist UX UXer um job description to say must have been uh three years as a seismologist recognised and credited, etc. etc. But I do think it's reasonable to expect that UXer to then uh go on and learn as much as possible about that. I think the point the point I'm making here is that that's not typical when you're uh not dealing with a complex system. So it's kind of uh whilst of course a user research is understanding the very fundamentals of what it is, even the field you're working in, I think is a new um is a new problem when you're when you're talking about uh complex systems.
SPEAKER_03:It kind of yeah, I think I think this is where user research comes into into play and and talking to those experts who know what they're talking about uh and kind of partnering. I think um I I'm gonna do a real fanboy Apple moment here, and I was watching a worldwide developer conference uh last week and uh they were talking about like um health kit and and all the kind of things for the um iOS SDK and all the the health uh places where Apple really wants to get into, and working with kind of like heart experts on how to measure hearts with your Apple Watch and things like that. So you know I think that's kind of partnering up and getting that information and teasing it out and good user research is is key to those, and it's sometimes as well, it's understanding the business problem and what that business problem is as to to solve those points. It's a tricky one though.
SPEAKER_00:I was just gonna say, like, you both made really good points there that made me made me think like. It's not about being like a UX designer, it's not about understanding seismology. It's about talking to seismologists and understanding them.
SPEAKER_01:Completely nice. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. There's a sound bite for the podcast. Actual an actual lesson.
SPEAKER_00:An actual piece of useful information. Five episodes in. It is five, isn't it? Are we on four? Don't even know how many episodes we've done. Five, six, six.
SPEAKER_03:Five. This'll be the fifth one.
SPEAKER_00:Just a fever dream, innit, at this point. Yeah. Yeah, so that's it, innit? That's the that's the you that's a UX job in a nutshell.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think I think what makes it unique in this this kind of area is that I think the business that's hiring that UXer uh needs to understand that as well because they're gonna have to because it's different from just interviewing two or three people um about how they've used Delivery before, for instance. It's about spending more time. I think I'd say you'd have to spend more time with them, almost buddy up with them if you can, um and and take on. As much as you can be a UX consultant, you'd need your seismology consultant to help you out as well, so it becomes far more symbiotic that relationship.
SPEAKER_03:You know what I kind of like I I think of when when we talk about this is method acting. So and I I I think you know, you can quite liken uh UX design to actors, and you have to, if you're gonna play a part or kind of like do a UX role, you have to learn that character and that person really, really well to kind of know you know how they tick, how they'd react in a certain situation. But then you can add labor and go off script a little bit, uh, and kind of bring it all together really well. And then you know, if you're lucky, win an Oscar or a design award.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's really that's a really nice way to put it, and that that ties into the subject of art versus science really well as well, which we won't get into now.
SPEAKER_01:But we're not Nick, I know you really want to discuss that one. But this is my subject, so we're talking about what I want to talk about.
SPEAKER_03:But yeah, that's the book. But when you do a vote online, you can't control it.
SPEAKER_00:I don't yeah, this is our podcast, not the listeners. The listeners can fuck off.
SPEAKER_03:Why the plural? Come on.
SPEAKER_00:Well when I listen to it back, Drew's usually sat next to me, so technically that is technically two listeners, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_01:There's a there's a there's a um there's a web show, I think, called is that the actual title? Is a nightmare because but it's um is it N U G H H N U H H H H is how it's spent spelt. And it's a uh it's a couple it's a pair of very splendid drag queens who talk about whatever the fuck they want. Um and at the start they say they say uh welcome to uh uh where we talk about whatever we want because it's our show, not yours. And uh I think that's that's something that um we are never going to employ because we've just asked people to choose this book before gone out the window.
SPEAKER_00:I think the minute it's a it's a little bit like like getting off topic, it's a little bit like my Instagram page, NT Illustrators. Um I literally started it because I was dying inside and uh just like posted crap I was drawing on there and it did quite well. But the second I started doing things to like that I thought my followers might like, I noticed like a bit of a drop-off. And they also noticed like me getting less interested in doing it as well. Whereas now I've just kind of well, I'm not doing it at all now, but when I do do it, I just do whatever I want, whether I think people are gonna like it or not. Makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:That's a good idea. Not that you can do that in a complex system, however.
SPEAKER_03:I nicely won't that thank you, thank you.
SPEAKER_01:I'll take my payment now and I'll leave. But um because because you you're yeah your your customers uh the I'm trying desperately to claw this back now. I brought it round but floundering. Um but it's because the the the people you're designing for their needs um are so centred around what they do on a day-to-day basis as opposed to a specific need in one moment and I think that's that's a part of it. Um and I think going back to what we're saying about buddying up and learning what you can, um I remember when I was doing a bit of research for this podcast, I was um because I do do that, you know, sometimes. Actually, I know the one point that was made was um I've completely forgotten it. That's good.
SPEAKER_03:I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_00:I just just pause and think and we can just edit that in.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, we don't do any editing in the middle, I just leave it to run. So it's uh whatever bullshit we make makes it in the show.
SPEAKER_00:Well we're gonna do it next one, so I'll I'll dive into the I'll dive into the middle. I got um whatever it was working. I've removed it now. Right, here we go.
SPEAKER_01:Right silence, three, two, one, uh you've got to um develop a very quick passion for whatever it is you're doing the specialized UX for. Um the you know, the complex system you're approaching. So in this case you do have to, you know, we to extend the seismology example we've run with, uh you've got to take a sudden, very quick, and very passionate interest in seismology to kind of fuel that learning experience, and that can be a big ask because um you don't naturally have an inherent need for anything you're resolving. You're not one of your own users. Whereas I can foresee if you're uh doing a a simpler system such as food delivery, um that's a need that we're all very familiar with. Um so yeah, that uh picking up that passion.
SPEAKER_00:It's the method acting thing again, isn't it? And yeah, yeah, yeah. I think my problem isn't like I can be enthused about almost anything for a short amount of time. It's it's carrying it on for like weeks or months or however long like a longer project might last. You know, like you I could I could be asked to do a seismology job and I probably find that really interesting for a week, maybe two. But if I was working on a very dry seismology app for six months, I'll probably not feel so enthused about it by the end of it.
SPEAKER_03:I mean I I I don't know, because once you get into those d I love those details though. I think that's key.
SPEAKER_00:I think the the thing I really like is the problem solving and that that applies to anything, doesn't it? So it doesn't necessarily like it comes to a point actually where you a l a little bit you kind of lose sight of what even the end product is when you when you're in in the weeds, like actually working on something, you can kind of uh forget what what it what it is you're doing, which I g I guess is a problem, like it's not something you actually want to be doing, but when you're working on like the nitty-gritty of the problem solving, you don't you can you don't need to be thinking about seismology.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you can forget you can forget what the product actually is that you're working on in a sense. For a little bit, yeah. One thing I've noticed when working on a complex system is it's inherent inherently difficult to map because you're you're asking specialized users to do their stuff, um, so it's difficult to account for the happy path. And even even if you know, as a place to start you were to try and delineate what the happy path from A to B is, that's one one potential outcome out of whatever it is your seismologist wants to achieve.
SPEAKER_03:Oh I'm glad you mentioned happy paths. Go Nick, your first thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well I was just gonna say like sometimes when you're trying to when you're trying to map an incredibly complicated process, it almost gets to the point where it's just not useful or any less complicated than the thing you're trying to map in the first place. Do you reckon there's a do you reckon it's always useful to do that? Or do you reckon there's sometimes where you've just got to like you feel like you're just going through the motions, doing your due diligence and getting this thing down and then you're just like, I'll never use that again.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think it can yeah, that can definitely happen. Due diligence in some form I think is important, but you know, like like like uh you say, if you try and map everything down, you will be there forever. Um and you'll be talking about such uh edge cases uh and edge cases within edge cases and edge cases within edge cases within edge cases that um it will it won't be useful because how do you then there's an entire piece of prioritization off the back of that. Um and so I I I I I'd say even at this point there's question of what minimum viable design would would be in identifying that.
SPEAKER_00:Is this where product owners and product managers come in then as well?
SPEAKER_01:Um potentially, but that that that depends, in my opinion, how closely they are aligned to seismologists and the needs of those people.
SPEAKER_00:Well, and UX, I guess, as well. Yeah. Because they've got other considerations, aren't they? Exactly. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um go on, go on. I was gonna say the happy path though is is is quite nice to start from that, um, because that's your min minimum viable product, and that's probably what you know you could easily ship with, but then it's adding that flexibility into the complexities, you know, and and then mapping those things out.
SPEAKER_00:That's how you simplify it, and god, let me try let me try that a couple. That's how you simplify it in the first instance and then work out from the happy path.
SPEAKER_01:I think the point is with a complex system, is if you simplify um to the point where you have a happy path, then you have probably left out features. And we're talking, you know, simple simpli not not just like nice to have features as well. You're describing one A to B process within quite a complex system.
SPEAKER_00:This this is it. This is my this is my question about complicated systems. Uh is it complicated because it's badly designed in the first place and it doesn't have to be complicated.
SPEAKER_03:Well I think everything can be simplified. Um the uh quote from Dieter Rands, yeah, less but better.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um, you know, and and I think the simplification, but you just have to be slightly careful for who your audience is and kind of do they want it simplified. So if you're you know, let's let's use let's really run with the seismology.
SPEAKER_01:I just want to say I've never even spoken to a seismologist. For some reason, that was the first thing I could think about rocks, rocks slamming into each other.
SPEAKER_00:Imagine if we got loads of tweets from seismologists saying it's the easiest job in the world. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But then they'd be telling themselves out, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it? You know, all of a sudden 30% pair cut for you start.
SPEAKER_00:He's saying that seismologists uh I can't I can't say that words.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we could have picked an easier We need to simplify simplify it, don't we?
SPEAKER_00:I need to simplify it. We'll call them earthquake hunters. Earthquake boys, yeah. I go shaky men shaky men, shaky uh wobblers anyway. Yeah, I forgot one more point.
SPEAKER_03:Interestingly you made your point.
SPEAKER_02:It was about uh reducing complexity whilst maintaining functionality again beautifully done.
SPEAKER_00:That's what you've done twice in one episode. Right, I'm done, guys. You you wrap this episode. I'm off I'm off for a bath.
SPEAKER_01:Another bean bath. There we go.
SPEAKER_03:Get in there.
SPEAKER_01:20 to 5 on a Friday, bean bath time.
SPEAKER_03:It's complex, but yeah, you you you're exactly right though. That happy path though, sometimes if you're too rigid to it, is um you don't allow for the flexibility there. So this is um this I'm always going to mention real-world UX stuff, uh, and this comes to my push pull handles. So when you've got like one of those push handles with a handle on, and you push it, you you're not giving that's like taking away flexibility for somebody who you're always gonna think that's a pull one because you're kind of ingrained to doing it when it's got it, you have to put a label on, you know, like a sleeping horse, and you need kind of like it's sleeping. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So um it's those like you have to build in all that flexibility, and and I think sometimes what what designers were all guilty of this in some part is we like that new and shiny thing and that happy path, and then it's it's those little details underneath that make it a delight and not just a pain uh to use, and you know, if you just make that happy path, especially for complex, you know, the wobble people, uh if you make that happy path, is you you you know you don't add that flexibility and then you don't I feel that if you've got an inherently complex system, one of the identifiers is gonna be that you start mapping out a happy path and then in the middle of it you've got a block which just says you user does stuff.
SPEAKER_03:Classic.
SPEAKER_01:User yeah, user creates thing, user inputs stuff, and and it's gonna be vague, and I think that's probably one of the that's one of the problems with with um trying to map out a complex system is because you could then look at that and then look at the 16 trillion different things that wobble boys and girls want to achieve within uh within that space. You know, um going back to uh the the um conversation we had about um our software, so where we were the specialised users um and we had uh s generalist software as it were, uh or we were trying to achieve general goals. Trying to map out a happy path for something like Figma, um I think that's gonna be nigh on impossible with uh well well, yeah, I just think uh the without a a b a huge blob in the middle that says uh UX designer designed something or stuff happens here written down.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it's like Photoshop, you know, Photoshop when it started, it was such a simple app, and now it's hugely complex. And you can do you know, whatever you want in there, you can make 3D stuff, you can do animation in there.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think that's part of the problem though, is that they've uh they've tried to put too much into Photoshop to keep up with other things that were like stealing its lunch?
SPEAKER_01:I think that's a really interesting point actually, because well the key definition for me, which is about from complex systems, which is from uh NNG, is that it is uh what is it they specifically use? Um complex apps for specialized demands as opposed to generalist apps for everyday demands. And I think one thing that um that identifies when you're going too far with your complexity is when you're starting to try to try and solve problems that actually don't meet the needs of that that specialized user or don't exist. Or indeed, yeah, don't exist for that that specialized user. Um and so you end up trying to in trying to invent a generalist app for generalist uh for for let me try that again. You you're trying to uh develop an application that solves everything for everybody.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean that example that Paul gave there's a million things I would look at using to do 3D before I even thought of doing using Photoshop for it.
SPEAKER_01:I've animated in Photoshop before.
SPEAKER_00:I have and never again.
SPEAKER_01:And that's the kind of that's the kind of compromise you make when you uh don't establish the boundaries of of your complex system, no matter how complex it is. Um because you know you start yeah you start to try and force users to do something when uh when it your app just isn't built for that.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's m animating in Photoshop is mental. Because it still it still wants to use its layers. You've got like layers of stuff, and then on the bottom you've got like moments in time, and you just it it it I can't even describe it.
SPEAKER_01:I can't even square a square peg round hall, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's literally it's just as such a bizarre way to go about like doing things, just and then the same people made after effects, which which I just find absolutely bonkers. Like why first of all, why have you got both things? And second, why are you doing it so badly in one and like arguably s so very well in the other?
SPEAKER_03:You the now this is interesting because I'm what I'm gonna say here, I was I was gonna say for later, but um you just reminded me. Um, and it's if you're working on a complex system, usually that runs across different departments of uh businesses, and um one of the problems as a UX designer you have that complex systems are built by different departments and different teams. And I've I've I've been here and working and you know, even not centrally located teams, you know, working with people who are in India, in America, and in two different time zones, and they're doing one part over here and one part over there, and that is that adds complexity into it, even more so that you can become a bit siloed if you're not careful, yeah. And I think this is one of the joys of design systems though, and the learning those things on design systems, but you know, a business has to have that vision that you've got to have a layer that sits over it and is almost the the dominatrix of that of that of that um system to make it all work, and I think that that's where Photoshop probably fell apart, somewhere along the line.
SPEAKER_00:It's it really interesting you mentioned that like at that point because that's something I've been struggling with in the past couple of weeks is things that really should be the same across a product being designed differently um in in different plugins and different products just because two different teams have worked on it. And even though we've got like a component library, there are these inconsistencies in in two different well in two different products that should be doing the same thing in the same way, and that again speaks to like complicated systems in that it's so complicated to put them together and to keep tabs on them. Like there's a there's a component that exists but it only half exists because we only got halfway through creating it before we were pulled in another direction and had to work on something else, and then that component gets put into things when it's not complete, and then two people use that component and go, Oh, this isn't complete, I better finish it off, and they finish it off in two different ways and then don't tell each other, and then it just it just gets completely out of control. Totally.
SPEAKER_03:I don't I you know it's a it that's a really tricky situation, and that's tricky for new ex people as well, and to solve that problem, um or and or anybody to solve that problem. And I think you know what I'm I'm just gonna preach here about hackathons and doing uh and doing very quick prototypes up front because you eliminate a lot of these problems uh along the way. So that one of the problems you have with complex systems is you do a lot of thinking before anything's even been made. And because you've put so much time and effort into that thinking, when you come to implement it, it becomes a harder ship to steer in a different direction. Uh and that sometimes is a massive pitfall for any business out there. Uh the you know, kind of like and I I'm a massive fan of kind of fight. I I even set up like a a Proto Shop, uh a prototyping shop or Proto Shop shop is an incredible name for that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, to trademark that before this goes live. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Speaking of complex system, I've just got an idea for a complex system we can create. What's it called, Mark? Um um oh it's gone.
SPEAKER_03:Wobblers. Wobbler wobbler shop. Nick Nick's already on GoDaddy looking for the top. Don't get me started on that. Um, but the the Proto Shop, uh, you know, we kind of spent we just had a time box and and like a week was a maximum time we ever spent on anything, and it was you know, you'd have uh a some very small team just building this prototype, and you'd kind of come across all these pitfalls and and all the uh problems beforehand before you even do it. And I think sometimes you know, without that little pro proto shop and you just go into right, we've got to deliver that, we've got to create all the user stories for it, we've got to map that out, we've got to put it on the roadmap. We haven't even kind of like tried to build it yet. Uh so how how can you kind of plan out all that with with so many unknowns? It's it's very tricky. Um but yeah, proto shopping, that's the future.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I love that. I love that name. Right, so we've been going for about 45 well, 40 minutes. I wanted to just quickly talk about like the good things about working on complicated systems, which I have an example of. So I'll go ahead with my example. Right. So what what I've been thinking about in the past like week or two since we brought this up as a subject is I'm gonna bring this down to my level now. So okay. Have you ever watched Dragon Ball?
SPEAKER_01:I have not.
SPEAKER_00:Paul?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, every yeah, uh a few episodes, not.
SPEAKER_01:I assume this is a child's cartoon. Um I say assume, I have heard it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, if if I if I'm talking about it, it must be a child's cartoon. I don't I don't like the insinuation there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, yeah, I shouldn't have had to ask. I apologise. So I have heard of Dragon Ball, I I'm just aware, hyper aware that it's a child's cartoon.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it it should be, but you know, the only people I ever hear talk about are adults. But you know, I don't I don't talk to that many children, so there you go.
SPEAKER_02:Well, there is that.
SPEAKER_00:After the moment, um yeah, so right, so in drag this is Dragon Ball, right, not Dragon Ball Z, so that's a distinction I want to make. Don't get those two. Okay, right, okay.
SPEAKER_03:So in in Dragon Ball, right, there's there's an episode where the the training for a tournament goes seismology for a tournament, isn't that almost every episode?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I've seen it reference. So you have seen it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If you've seen any episode of Dragon Ball Dragon Ball is better than Dragon Ball Z because it's based on Journey to the West, which is like the old Chinese fable. Okay. So it was originally Dragon Ball when it first started, it it followed Goku as a kid, and it it was essentially like a a retelling of Journey to the West, which is about the Monkey King, which is why Goku's got a tail and he flies around on a magic cloud and he's got like a magic staff and stuff. It's like basically ripped from like Journey from the West. Anyway, so Goku and Krillin are training for this um tournament and they're not quite good enough. So the the the master um makes them wear these really, really heavy turtle shells. They're like they're like weigh, they like weigh a ton. So they're already like stronger than normal people, anyway, but it makes them wear these really really heavy turtle shells. And at the start of the episode, or when they're doing it, they can barely walk. And by the end of it, they continue to train and train and train to the point where they can jump like four times higher than a normal person wearing this turtle shell, and they can punch like four times harder than a normal person. Right, and then at the end of the training, when they're ready, they take the turtle shells off jump and just ping off into the distance, never to be seen again. Exactly, and they can jump like twenty times higher than a normal person, and that to me is how I see working on like really comp the the kind of work that I've been working on, really complicated systems, is that you it's like a trial by fire, you know like getting thrown into the deep end, working on this incredibly complicated system all day every day, and then having to do something that's like an e-commerce platform where it's just like buy a thing, put it in the basket, check out, and it it's it tr it's yeah, it's like what a baptism by fire, like it's true it it's it's a gladiator camp for doing like basic simple stuff that just becomes like second nature because you've had all this mad shit thrown at you for the past four months.
SPEAKER_01:I'd agree, I'd agree because it you are forced in in a complex system you're forced to consider new perspectives, you know, uh establishing the boundaries of of what the complex system has, uh knowing what it doesn't have to do as much as what it does have to do, stripping back things so that they are as simple as possible. I think that's something that's unique uh to uh developing for a complex system, is uh there's a huge onus on removing the noise, removing the fluff, uh to making it simple. And so I think that when you if you were in that situation where you're working on a complex system and you m remove the proverbial tortoise shell to move to a an e-commerce site, you'd probably spot sixteen different items, uh, you know, design components which are just noise immediately because you'd you'd honed that skill set when you were working on a complex system. So I think there are definitely um synergies between between the two in terms of complex systems for specialized demand or generalized apps for general demand.
SPEAKER_00:Or just knowing things you don't know. You know, like if you're working on different ways of um like authentication and things like that. If if you don't need to find a different way to authenticate, then you don't know it exists. You know, if if you're if you're getting by with capturing people's email addresses or whatever, you don't need to figure out a better way to do it or like a something that's better for conversion or whatever.
SPEAKER_03:I think the the other interesting thing to this point is that you know, can't you really have to dig in I've I've spent all week doing a really complex networking problem. Uh and I've really had to dig into the details, uh talk to experts, uh, and kind of really understand the problem. And I've just been going through all my designs and annotating every single little detail, what goes on here, is this a right-click, what's in the focus, what's uh you know, when you tab into it, what's what's all these dates, and you know, all the accessibility and stuff around it as well, and things there, and it's so it's all those de but now I can really understand the problem a lot more, um more confident talking about it. So for me it's good.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's just that can that can be a monolithic task in itself, can't it?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, yeah. And sometimes you know it's it can be really it's like pulling teeth at the same time. Especially if it's ethereal.
SPEAKER_01:Right. How how long have we been going now?
SPEAKER_00:We've been going about 47 minutes.
SPEAKER_01:Not that it matters so much, I just wondered if if we wanted to wrap up or not.
SPEAKER_00:Have we said everything we wanted to say?
SPEAKER_01:Well I've got to do that. Oh go on.
SPEAKER_03:Go on. The only thing I wanted to add was um what what's very different from kind of like your e-commerce sites on complex systems is the you you have users that actually may never interact with the software you're using. So uh I think what we we describe them as cheerleaders, so they've got a vested interest in the outcome of the software, but actually would never use it, but they want to see the output of what it's doing.
SPEAKER_00:Have you got a specific example?
SPEAKER_03:I can provide I can provide an example of that. It's just about wobble people as well. It's can we relate it into wobble people?
SPEAKER_01:Can I relate it to wobble people? Wobblers, it was wobblers.
SPEAKER_03:Oh sorry, yeah, sorry, I added a level of complexity on that. Sorry.
SPEAKER_01:What is it that's wobbling? Oh, so well, it's everything, isn't it, Mark? Yes. Um the yeah, so if we if we're relating it back to wobblers, it would be um I'd argue it'd probably be outputting reports on trends, for example, and it's that output that then goes off to people who will never touch the software but depend on it to get that information.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um yeah, or it could be software that runs a piece pizza making machine and like you'd never interact with it, but you'd want the pizza at the end.
SPEAKER_01:Right, yeah, yeah, stuff like that.
SPEAKER_03:A pizza making machine. Do they exist?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so Boston Robotics, that's probably our first problem to solve. Well that fit in my kitchen.
SPEAKER_03:It's almost like uh it's almost like a uh dot matrix printer, but with pepperoni.
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:Does it make the base as well? Uh I think the base is a pre-made. Oh right. I'm not interested. I'm not interested.
SPEAKER_00:They're fallen at the first hurdle there, aren't they? It could be, it could be though. I'm sure it could.
SPEAKER_01:The complexity lies in making a fresh pizza in the door rather than in topping the pizza, I would argue.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I was like, I was I'm I'm not gonna say that making a pizza is easy, because making a good a good pizza is not easy, but someone who can make a pizza can probably do that a lot easier than building a machine to do it would ever cut the time down on, I'm sure.
SPEAKER_01:No it depends because you've got how how much training, how many tortoise shells does your trainee pizza guy have to wear before he can make uh the best pizza?
SPEAKER_00:I think there's having observed people make pizza numerous times before then having judged them accordingly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there's there's like your only observ only ever observed people making pizza pizza.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I've never been I've never been one myself. Exactly. Haven't you seen it? It looked quite easy, really.
SPEAKER_00:So um oh god, what's the name of the pizza place in Manchester that everyone loves?
SPEAKER_01:Um Rudy's.
SPEAKER_00:Yes. So I'm gonna give a I'm gonna give a free shout-out, free promotion to Rudy's. Um if you want to send me some free pizzas, I'll give you my address.
SPEAKER_01:Uh you might give them a free shout-out for there, giving you dick.
SPEAKER_00:But yeah, when when you go in Rudy's, they've got really nice uh seats by where they prepare the pizzas. And there's there's the guys who've obviously worked there a while and maybe even train the other guys, and you can see them like throwing the dough and stuff, and then there's like almost the sort of training wheels version of doing it where they're doing it in a very different way but getting like a similar result. Right, I see. So there's there's there's layers to it, but I feel like having a pizza making machine is overcomplicating and creating a complicated system around something that's not all that complicated once you've like spent the time figuring it out in the first place.
SPEAKER_01:The the interesting thing about the complex system though, if we're talking about pizza making as a complex system, then it inherently has to consider the environment, uh the people working there, the people who uh their needs and the different uh even to like even to the point where you're discussing like the institution and the cultural structures and stuff behind it. Um which means that if you're going to create a pizza making machine, chances are that software or hardware wouldn't actually make pizzas, it would facilitate the creation of pizzas.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, well, I mean that's essentially how dominoes run, so in it like it's all uh another shout out where we're getting attention from. I'm gonna bleep that one out because you know what you don't want a pizza, yeah. Exactly. They're a huge faceless corporation and franchise. I'm not giving them a free shout out, but I will shout out Rudy's Manchester. Um but yeah, it's yeah, yeah. So they that that's all partially automated, isn't it? And it's all you know like laid out like um an assembly line. But um, yeah, I think we're almost treading on the territory of automation versus artisan there, aren't we?
SPEAKER_01:When you're thinking about um say to continue with pizza making as a complex system, then you're no longer thinking about how you can replace the people doing that job and simplify it and strip it back and turn it into A to B. What you're thinking about is how can you facilitate those pizza makers so that they don't have to think about how they make make the pizza, they can focus on what they're making, new ideas around pizza making, uh getting it out there, uh removing any friction, stuff like that. As opposed to stripping it all out and as you say, uh automating it to the point where you put push a button and you get one type of pizza that is uh made to one type of specification, which is arguably obviously the simple simplification of that.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting that we've stumbled onto talking about pizza and dominoes because they'd recently got sued and fined, didn't they, for their app. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I'm not entirely familiar with that. Definitely not for me, for our users.
SPEAKER_00:So that app that app anyway is crap and the pizza tracker is crap. But the it was based on an accessibility well, a smile, a smiley face. Perhaps that's why it's crap. Yeah. Yeah. That's a story for another time. There is, there is, yeah. Um but yeah, it was it's an accessibility thing, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Was it? Yeah, too much, but yeah, yeah. I so I understood it was accessible an accessibility issue. Uh what about it was inaccessible.
SPEAKER_03:Mr. Rubbles, uh apologies if I was pronounced your name wrong.
SPEAKER_00:Uh Mike is gonna be fucking listening to me.
SPEAKER_03:It's because he's got a um search term on Dominoes versus Rubbles, so it just pops in it's uh stream.
SPEAKER_00:Mr. Wobbles.
SPEAKER_03:The seismologist. Yeah, the seismologist. Oh well he would be if it wasn't so bloody complex. Um he he um took took Domino's to court because he couldn't order a pizza because um he he was blind and he just couldn't use their app. Uh and it just failed failed him miserably. Uh and their rebuttal, uh Domino's, uh, was uh well he could have phoned up. Uh that's not the response, yeah. It's not the response you want. And I think um some analysts somewhere that um said it would have cost them about$35,000 uh to fix the app, uh you know, at a push, and uh they went into the high court and lost so strap for cash dominoes are like because you couldn't spend 35 grand on yeah, so because they can't be asked to spend that, every blind person who wants a dominoes pizza has to ring up, yeah, has to rely on ecosystems that aren't provided by dominoes to get a domino.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's the definition of keyboardist.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, um but yeah, it's oh god.
SPEAKER_00:But why if if it's easier to ring up, why have an app? Well that that that's it, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly the question. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Why? Because everyone else has got an app. Yeah. That's why they've got an app.
SPEAKER_01:But it's also not easier to ring up. It isn't and certainly not the easiest solution for someone with a um visibility-based accessibility need, is it? You know?
SPEAKER_03:Not at all. Yeah. They uh they also sent a leaflet menu out to him after to say that. No, no, no.
SPEAKER_04:I'm just making a straight up believe you then.
SPEAKER_03:100% a joke.
SPEAKER_00:Our lawyers have been in touch to the ends that we have to state that that was a joke. In fact, a joke. It only took place in Paul's imagination. Yeah, and so.
SPEAKER_01:The real discrimination against people with a visual based accessibility needs was limited to dominoes saying you should have just rang up, mate. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:What's wrong with you? Yeah. Can you not see the buttons on the phone? Oh wait.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, oh dear.
SPEAKER_00:My grandad had um uh a partially sighted telephone. And I think you'll find that all telephones.
SPEAKER_02:You are we're gonna we're both making the same joke here. Yeah, I think you'll find Nick that all telephones are at least partially sighted. Most of them. Unless they've got a camera.
SPEAKER_00:What do you mean?
SPEAKER_02:You said partially sighted telephone, which sounded as if it was a telephone who couldn't that couldn't see.
SPEAKER_00:Was it I think you'd being overly pedantic there. It was a telephone intended for people who were partially sighted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, we couldn't.
SPEAKER_00:You wanted me to say my grandfather had a telephone that was intended for use by people who were partially sighted. We've only got fucking an hour to get this recorded. Talking about complicated systems, right? I love it, I love it. And it had it had do you know what? It's I'm not even gonna tell this story anymore because it's not funny. Oh poignant. Basically, it had massive numbers on it.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_02:I tell you what was funnier than that, you throwing your ties in at the pram, then I'm incredibly satisfied with the output there.
SPEAKER_00:Uh so UX Tumboler now.
SPEAKER_01:Oh well, shall we summarise? Shall we summarise because I think we've got to come up with a few ideas. Do we have to summarise?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, we do because tell them what you're gonna tell them, tell them, and then tell them what you told them.
SPEAKER_01:And we might come out with a few other ideas. So that one of the first points we made was it's can I just before you summarise, Mark?
SPEAKER_03:Can you uh so I got loads of feedback from saying uh people listen to things like one and a half times speed, two times speed. So you say it really fast to fuck those people up. Yeah, yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Are you ready to be compatible with a specific domain anybody up with your users to create strategistic relationships and research? Oh yeah, complex systems is extremely difficult. Establish the boundaries of your complex system, know what problems you're trying to solve. Sometimes one size won't fit all. Design systems will help you design for complexity and scalability. Complex systems often span multiple departments and special editions within the same user base. Prototyping creative quickly can help identify and eliminate problems early on.
SPEAKER_02:Thinking too much about your solution can make changing. I had no idea I could do this, by the way.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Absolutely amazing. I think we need to get in touch with I think you might have found like a Guinness World Record talent.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, friends. No, I'll do it properly. Uh so to summarise, then uh becoming passionate about that specific domain you're in and buddying up with uh your users, your targeted users, can help to create a uh synergistic relationship between your you know the person you're designing for and and them teaching you about about that specialized field. And it can help with research as well. So on top of that, mapping out complex systems is extremely difficult. Um so maybe don't try and tackle it all at once. Prototyping quickly can help you identify and eliminate problems early on. Um but also bear in mind that thinking too much about your solution can make changing direction and responding to new information difficult. Um establish the boundaries of your complex system, so know what's the problems you're trying to solve, what's part of your complex system, uh, and what actually is you trying to solve everything at once, which is I think something we flip into as UX designers. Um bear in mind that a design system will help you design for complexity and scalability. We'll probably have we already done a podcast on that scalability and accessibility? No, no, design systems.
SPEAKER_00:No, we've not done scalability. No, not specifically. We should do um is is UX an art or a science. Oh that's a new one, that isn't it, Nick.
SPEAKER_03:You've suggested that before. Let's put it to a social media vote.
SPEAKER_01:Or uh because uh if anyone's still listening, they probably already are on our Patreon. You can go to our Patreon to access premium content such as voting on our next podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Oh Mark, I'm gonna have to set that up now before we remote. Oh no, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01:No one's actually gonna donate to this bollocks.
SPEAKER_00:My mum might oh actually speaking of my mum, I we were driving back from Wales last week and we were listening to some music and no one was really paying attention. So I turned to my mum and I was like, Oh mum, do you want to listen to my podcast? And she just looked me dead in the eyes and just went, No.
SPEAKER_01:I love the upwards inflection at the end of that as if to say, son, who do you think I am? Who the fuck you weren't driving this car? I'd tell you to get out.
SPEAKER_03:Nick, Nick, I already listened to you more than a so to continue with the summary.
SPEAKER_01:We're nearly there now, boys. Um complex systems often span multiple departments and specializations with the same within the same universe, and designing complex systems provides alternative perspectives that will carry on through your URX career and often um help you create less arguably less complex applications because of those alternative perspectives. So there you go. If you weren't making notes throughout, there are your notes. There you go.
SPEAKER_00:And Mark's gonna type those up and tweet them so that you can uh have them for reference.
SPEAKER_01:I think uh they already are typed up, dear. How do you think I can manage to wring it off so quickly? I don't think as fast as I was speaking that first time. That's why I don't speak that quickly usually.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, unfortunately I'm the complete opposite of that. Uh UX Tombola. Mark, do you wanna do you wanna do the honours and wheel it in?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I'll um just open the door. Um door noise here.
SPEAKER_03:Is Giles back, by the way? Or is it Giles?
SPEAKER_01:No, well Cobbler update. He is back, but um I still need the heels doing on my shoes.
SPEAKER_03:So my goodness. What's he been doing?
SPEAKER_01:Fuck no. He's obviously left half of himself over wherever he was vacationing. Um so I'll get some heels and I'm gonna lob them at him when he comes through the um well, he actually tends to take the dumb waiter up. He's got some strange habits, Giles.
SPEAKER_00:Wobblers before cobblers, I say.
SPEAKER_01:I think so. Well, is Giles' wife is the uh The wobbler of the family. Yeah, she's the in-house seismologist.
SPEAKER_02:Aristotle, it's on it's on a fault line. So we need to be prepared. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Someone give it a spin.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Here we go.
SPEAKER_03:I'll let you, my own's still dodgy.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's a good point. But we've got a spin in now. Um have we got a theme tune for this? Do you want to sing a theme tune?
SPEAKER_00:Oh shit, yeah, I almost think.
SPEAKER_01:Well well, finger sing.
SPEAKER_00:Finger thing tuning.
SPEAKER_02:Finger singing. Finger thing thing. Blah blah blah.
SPEAKER_00:Uh, tombola, watch out for your shoes. We'll give you the spin.
SPEAKER_02:And shall we choose? Yes!
SPEAKER_03:Two work well done.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Right, I've got I'll do that off the top again. Two X. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, then you're just gonna cut Mark out. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right, so the the one we've got today is like kind of on a bit of a theme, because it's a garden broom.
SPEAKER_02:Bloody hell. What the fuck is wrong with this? Do it again, just do it again.
SPEAKER_00:Something else.
SPEAKER_03:I know, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Watch it be a regular broom.
SPEAKER_00:It's gardened. No, it's not, it's uh personal finances. Oh what? That's it. Oh man. Giles.
SPEAKER_01:That's who I used to do my personal finances.
SPEAKER_00:In fact, going out on a high ear, aren't we?
SPEAKER_03:I know, yeah. I I was reading an article yesterday on personal finances.
SPEAKER_00:Oh god, is it bad?
SPEAKER_03:I know that's how that's how I roll. That's how my exciting life. That's what happened when you have kids. That's you know, kind of like you get you kicks.
SPEAKER_01:Well no, I imagine I imagine what might have happened there is you've opened your bank account, you've gone, shit, how do I solve this problem? Yeah. Typed it into Google and read three articles to become an immediate internet expert on it.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, so this this actually was uh it's about having six bank accounts. Uh the advice seems excessive. That that was the advice, and it's to solve uh problems of your personal personality.
SPEAKER_01:How many of those bank accounts are based offshore?
SPEAKER_03:Uh four. No, no, I think they're all they're all uh they're all bank account, and it's basically like pots of money. Uh so you have one for bills, one for food, uh, one for partying and other stuff. And it's basically so, and then savings and emergency funds and something else. I didn't read it too closely. Um I think that's a great idea though.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's providing a bank will let you have six accounts.
SPEAKER_00:So with different providers, I've got a Monzo account and it has pots in it. So I've got like a lot of pots. I'm just opening up my app now to see how many I've actually got because I've got a lot. I wouldn't be surprised if we've got six. So I've got you've got like an a your standard account, which is you know your current account, and then I've got um a pot for that I call house, which is like savings to go towards a house. I've got another pot which I put all my things that are selling Etsy in, so I can keep track of what I'm making on Etsy. I've got another one for eBay, which is exactly the same thing for eBay, but I don't use eBay uh these days because it's crap. Um I've got a roundup pot, so another good thing that Monzo does is you can you can flick on this thing called round up, and if you spend anything that's less than a pound, it takes uh what would make that transaction a full pound and puts it in your roundup pot. So if you spend£10.12p, it puts in 80 Quick maths. 88 feet. 88 puts eight 88p into the roundup pot, and you'd be surprised how quickly that adds up to like real money. Um I've got a Bill's pot, so I put your cobbler is my cobbler, yeah. It's Charles's half brother. He doesn't get very much he's not so much a cobbler as uh and the man who cleans my Yeezys.
SPEAKER_01:Ah right. Okay. I am now in V You said he doesn't get round, so I know it's like I'm just imagining a hunchback gentleman of about indefinite ancient years with a toothbrush on your yeases. Yeah. And you can caked in mud.
SPEAKER_00:I don't get my Yeezys caked in mud. I'm not that I'm not rolling in mud.
SPEAKER_01:Shoes are meant to be destroyed.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, not these ones. Yeah, they're made out of suede, very soft suede. Oh, so I only wear them when I've had assurances that it's not gonna rain.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, I my brother's like that with his suede shoes. I think it's good advice in general. I just I just wear them in any old thing. I've been up mountains in dress shoes.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but you're a maniac. This is true.
SPEAKER_01:Charles was livid.
SPEAKER_00:Anyway, back to the so back to Bill. My so his his salary goes in there. So which which technically is classed as a bill. So what I do is um I put it it tells you how much is to go from your bills pot. You send all your direct debits and stuff to this pot, you put that amount of money in there, and then that comes out separately to like your spends in your current account. Yeah. So that money's already accounted for, and technically you shouldn't go overdrawn, even though I do a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:This is that's really interesting because one of the UX problems I was gonna raise, uh linked to personal finances, is setting up the dates that things come out. Yeah. Um and that kind of cuts through all that crap because if I I wanted to I had my Spotify was coming out on something like the 26th. And I well no, it wasn't, it was something like the seventh. And I wanted it to come out on the first. And I looked at that, I looked it up to see if there was any day I could any way I could change the direct debit. Maybe I have to pay a bit more or to make up the difference or something. Absolutely not. I have to cancel any Spotify I have, not listen to Spotify Premium for that duration, and then re-subscribe when I presumably remember on my new date, so the the first or the second or something.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah, yeah, they won't let you just rubbish. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I think there are quite a few services like that.
SPEAKER_03:I've been doing that for years, kind of like I've got my bills pot, and then as soon as I get paid, I transfer all my bills money and a little bit more into the bills pot.
SPEAKER_00:You've got a Yeezy cleaner as well, then.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And then I don't have to I just don't have to worry about it. Yeah, yeah. She's yeah, yeah. Just in between cutting the curtains and uh something to polish the Yeezys with. Yeah. But and I always think with personal finances, if you can see what you've got, you kind of spend it, or you mentally spend it before you've even got it. Yeah. And that's that's the problem.
SPEAKER_00:That's why I like to keep all my um like Etsy and eBay money separate. In fact, I I used to just keep all my money in PayPal and just forget that it's there. Um but but Etsy stopped using PayPal. I think eBay have actually stopped using PayPal now as well. And they just pay it directly in your account, which is like I don't want that. I don't want my money in my account.
SPEAKER_01:I'm I'm the exact opposite. I prefer as few middle people as possible when it comes to that. To the point where I'm not a fan of eBay because or or PayPal, because I'd rather get it directly from whoever or wherever I'm getting getting the money from.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I want to know. I want I wanna see because in my head I keep it as different things. If I'm making money off Etsy, then I pay for the cost of the things on Etsy out of that money, because it's like a self-sustaining thing. But also I need to know at the end of the month like where what that amount was, and then I can spend that money against something as like a treat for d making it kind of thing. Whereas if I put it in my main pot of money, it just disappears into the rest of the money. I think that's some promo. I think that's just called NT Illustrators now. It was probably called something else before, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01:It's um SEO optimization.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. It it it's just I think it's just like the print SLM website.
SPEAKER_01:I just said pin number.
SPEAKER_00:I hate that, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sorry about that, Nick. You didn't even realise it.
SPEAKER_00:I didn't because I don't know what SEO means. Um there's a really good video online of um Frank Abignale Jr., you know the guy that they made Catch Me If You Can about.
SPEAKER_03:Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um and he he says like what don't spend your own money. Basically have an account with your money in it and use credit to buy everything, and then at the end of the month pay your credit card off with the money from your account. Because if you're spending your money, then that amount, no matter how large or small, should be earning interest. So if you leave it in your account till the end of the month, it's earning that little bit more interest than if you uh pay for it on credit and then pay it no way. Then if you use cash. Yeah. And also it increases your your credit score as well.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, of course you've got to be mindful of um the interest rates on your credit as well.
SPEAKER_00:Well, yeah, I mean I've got so you know, th there's there's entire websites and stuff set up to to deal in with stuff like that, like money expert and stuff, but the entire careers set up to help. Yeah, yeah, well, like that Martin, whatever his name is. But uh that fella, yeah. Yeah, you know, the guy who run who owns uh Money Saving Expert website or Money Expert.
SPEAKER_01:I assumed he was a wobbler.
SPEAKER_00:He's not a wobbler, he's a he's a wibbler. That's very different. But yeah, you basically you get credit cards that have 0% finance for like 23, 24 months. Uh you you buy stuff on them, you pay it off by the time that comes up, and then it's like a free loan, basically.
SPEAKER_01:So are we actually solving any UX problem?
SPEAKER_00:I mean that that is a UX. I mean Monzo is a UX solution to banking.
SPEAKER_01:It is, it is because it's I've noticed that there's a scale, isn't there, really? Um on one side it's the amount of dev time you put in makes it easier for the user. On the other side, the the less dev time you put in makes it easier for the developer and more complex for the user. And I feel that's exactly what's gone on there. And Monzo's just come in and you know solving problems.
SPEAKER_00:Oh when so when Monzo first started, this beau I saw this beautiful thing on LinkedIn where someone I know knew someone who worked for like Barclays or I don't I don't know what bank it was, Barclays was just the one that came to mind first. In fact, I don't think it was them, I think it was someone else. Um and this person was was complaining that Monzo had come into the space and like was starting to take their customers, and they had such a poor appreciation for what Monzo were doing that they associated it to having a nice pink credit card, and they were like, Oh Monzo coming into the space, and everyone's getting Monzo now because you get a nice pink credit card, and it's it was uh being a customer of Monzo at the time was like, This is why you're failing because Monzo is as a really nice interface, it's put in the user first at the time they've rolled it back now, but at the time you could literally just tap chat and ask a person questions and get answers within about 10 minutes without having to ring anyone or go to the website or anything, it's all done in the app. You could send other people who use Monzo money instantly, um, you could do it by their phone number, and it's all real time as well. So if you send or receive a payment in Monzo, it happens instantly, whereas like banks take like three days to do exactly the same thing.
SPEAKER_03:Well, they they used to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well do they not work on Yeah, so they are they so that that is a thing that gave the entire banking industry a kick up the arse, then isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:And it has done as well. Challenger banks. Yeah. Um well with that in mind then I want to know what would the um Mark Nick Paul bank look like and how would it operate?
SPEAKER_00:I wouldn't give us a fucking cent.
SPEAKER_03:Oh this is a complex system in itself. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Straight off the bat.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Oh it's tricky. You know what? You know, one of the things I like is um I yeah, we we introduced something uh Barclays uh when I went there and it was a a dent in the credit card so that visual visual sciences people knew which way to insert their card into a machine.
SPEAKER_00:See, someone was someone used their card in front of me the other day and it had a little indent on the bottom of it cut out, and I literally asked them, What's that dent for? And they were like, Oh, I've no idea. And I thought it was to push it in with you know how you put your finger just at the bottom of the card as you push it into the machine. But I never it never even occurred to me that it was for partially sighted people to know that they had the card the right way up. Is that what it was? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course it is.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, because otherwise you you're you're trying four different ways before you get the right one.
SPEAKER_01:Or you're relying on like feeling the numbers on the front or what they introduced that that's something similar with um USBs, didn't they? Didn't they? Because um USBs only ever go in the third way, don't they?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, USBs have a third state that's only uncovered by trying it both ways.
SPEAKER_03:And and frustratingly, on on Windows machines it was always upside down, the USB. So you had to yeah, so if you go from like a Mac to a PC, you always had to kind of flip the wire over. That was uh and the amount of times I'm just going like uh uh uh trying to shove it in. You have to have the yeah, I did a visual motion there, which is uh rubbish on a podcast, doesn't it? Put it on Twitter, it's fine. Yeah, yeah, okay. Do a little gif of yourself, but um what would the UX solution be of a bank? I think we should cut I think we should call it pots, of gold. Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna fats of gold.
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna throw a cat amongst the pigeons and say faster horses coin.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, it's a gold.
SPEAKER_00:So it's a global Bitcoin.
SPEAKER_01:We take it because I was you said pots, um Paul, but I'm thinking pockets. I'm thinking pockets of money. Because what I'm thinking is I always have, because I wear three piece suits all the time, um I always have about 40,000 pockets at any given time, and that's a different UX tomballer. Um but if I want to keep my money in different pots, I don't want to carry around pots. So why don't I put my money in different pockets? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Just make sure they don't have that hole in, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, the one no, oh no, those are me those are my Sunday trousers there.
SPEAKER_02:Oh god, I've got some sort of mental image in my life probably should have chosen any other day of the week for the Lord's Day.
SPEAKER_03:You're in church with your holes in pockets.
SPEAKER_01:I'm gonna get a very strongly worded letter, aren't I? Yeah, yeah. Uh another idea. But um and I think maybe what we do is we introduced Faster Horses coin, FHC, as our currency, which has um a a ratio of one to one with the pound sterling, but presents it in far more carryable tokens for my pockets.
SPEAKER_03:Nice.
SPEAKER_00:I like it. I think technically that um this applies, but old China and maybe even current money. I've never been to China, I don't know. But old Chinese money used to have a hole through the middle, so you could attach it to a string and and carry it, or like wear it as a bracelet or whatever. That's a UX solution to financial personal finances.
SPEAKER_01:And it's also a UX solution to you like pockets.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because I was thinking I was just thinking the whole the whole wearing your money as a bracelet is also a UX solution for those who want to steal money as well.
SPEAKER_00:Or accidentally drown.
SPEAKER_01:Or accidentally drown, yeah, when they fall into a canal or a particularly deep.
SPEAKER_00:It's either it's either live and lose all your money or drown rich.
SPEAKER_05:There's our second sound right now.
SPEAKER_03:I feel like you've considered this before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Keeps me awake at night. The UX the UX of murder. All the Chinese millionaires that have drowned. I think that's the other problem, isn't it, as well? Because there's a there's very much an upper limit related to your physicality of how much coinage you can carry about in general.
SPEAKER_00:I guess that's why they're in paper money, isn't it? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna put a bit of a bit of a shit shine on this. Oh yeah. Yeah, because um I think we we've generally especially through the pandemic, nobody's using bloody money anymore.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, so I was physical cash. I was thinking about this the other day. It am I right in thinking that actually cash, physical cash now, has has it's flipped and that's become credit. So I was I was thinking about I was on holiday with my parents, right? And they insist on paying cash for everything, even though the card that they use to get cash out of the machine they can use in the shop to pay for the thing, right? But so um my dad got some money out, and I paid for something, so he gave me, let's say, ten quid, right? I put that ten quid in pocket money. I put my I put that ten quid. So I paid on my card, and then he gave me ten pounds to to get the cash to pay back. Later on, my sister paid for something on card, and I couldn't be asked carrying this cash around anymore. So I so I gave her the ten pounds, and then later on, I paid for something, or my dad paid for something, and he got that ten pounds back. So we'd all we'd all pay we'd all paid for something, but that ten pound had never left the front room.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's a scathing kind of examination of the bartering system in general, like and uh that's it's it's absolutely bizarre that like so I I could owe my dad ten pounds, and my dad could owe my sister ten pounds, so I give my dad ten pounds, and then he hands that same ten pounds off to my sister, and then my sister like buys something off me for ten pounds and gives me that same ten pounds back, and that's like three transactions that have taken place, and I've bought something off my sister, but it's the same it's the same ten pounds that never left the front room that's just gone round. No one knows no one owes anyone any money, but this piece of paper has changed and three times.
SPEAKER_01:The amount of people that use cash as an opportunity to offload mountains of change on me.
SPEAKER_00:It's all those all those pockets, Mark.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's what it is. They just see me as a target on YouTube of two pet pieces.
SPEAKER_03:Look at him in church with his hands in his pocket all the time. It must be really deep. Jingle in his change.
SPEAKER_01:You need something to jangle though, mate.
SPEAKER_00:That's a euphemism, innit? Look at him stood there jangling his change. I can't hear anything, but his his his face is distorted in pleasure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's some kind of morbid rictus of coinage. That that can be the name of our bank or our slogan, the morbid rictus of coinage MRC. I think um yeah, I think I'm gonna have to start to the point where I I've even considered getting one of those like if if such a thing exists, and maybe this is our solution, you know, one of those touch touch um things you you pay you pay for money in a touchless contactless, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:It's actually the complete opposite of touch, isn't it Mark? Because it's called contactless. Or don't even get me started on people that fucking touch the machine with their contactless card.
SPEAKER_01:I feel like you're really nitpicking there.
SPEAKER_00:There's a lot that to be called. It's called contactless. Why are you touching the machine with your card? I'm I'm with you, Nick.
SPEAKER_03:And they press it on really hard as well. Sure, yeah, rub it oh coronavirus jersey from there.
SPEAKER_01:That's an interesting thing though, because you're blaming the user. That must be, I would say, is an inherent problem with the design of uh the way the system's presented to them.
SPEAKER_03:I've I've actually, yeah, I can I can relate to that because I I've I never understand whoever designed the contactless card machines is a total idiot.
SPEAKER_02:Uh because uh why would you yeah again not not listening to this podcast?
SPEAKER_03:No, no, not listening to this the guy who sued um dominoes but but why would you design something where you cover up the feedback display?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah and just uh why would you that must be a nightmare for blind people as well? Contactless payment.
SPEAKER_03:Well yeah, yeah, because uh but that's you do get a you do get a little bit of feedback and you just get yeah, but yeah, yeah, you kind of not find in the machine at first in the first instance is gonna be easy.
SPEAKER_00:In the tail on the donkey. At least with this at least if you've got to put your card in a slot, you can physically find the slot, whereas the contactless thing is just like a label that's printed onto the machine, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:But of course, Nick's saying this, and the last time a blind person accidentally touched his contactless card to the machine, he just pushed him out of the way and just.
SPEAKER_03:When I get the chance to use contactless, I always use my phone because I get that haptic feedback. Oh, I use I use my watch because I'm a douche, but I can't.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you're one of those like you're not willing to excuse people touching the machine, but you're willing to have to gesticulate round your wrist in some great arc.
SPEAKER_00:So I wear my watch on my left hand, and when you go through McDonald's, it's the most awkward fucking thing. In fact, it's got to the point now where as I'm as I'm waiting in the queue at McDonald's, I'll switch my watch into my right hand.
SPEAKER_01:Going back to complex systems for a minute, there, Nick.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, McDonald's drive-thru. Do you know what? If you're using McDonald's drive-thru, you deserve everything you get. Well, what is it? Yeah. Which is you know, heart disease, diabetes, cold sugars, cold chips, cold chips. Spots, yeah, all of which I have, yeah. Well, I mean, you you eat enough McDonald's to become short-term problems very quickly.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this is true, yeah, it's a matter of perspective, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:Right, anyway, so do you have do you have any notes that you want to wrap up, Mark? Because my computer's about to die and we're all broken in.
SPEAKER_01:I think we've now got MCR F H C Bank. So it's M M C R Bank.
SPEAKER_03:That's catchy. Look to see the marketing people on that SEO. At least the domain name's available.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's it, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And will remain so.
SPEAKER_01:Faster Horses Coin. Here for your morbid rictus banking.
SPEAKER_00:Faster Horses Coin. Two outmoded ideas in one.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks for listening uh to our two listeners, which is essentially me in the future and begrudgingly my girlfriend. Yeah, um, definitely not your mum. No, definitely not my mum. I hope she doesn't listen to this one in particular because I've I've mourned about her like three times. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No more pocket change will be circulated in that living room.
SPEAKER_00:And then we'll just cut it there.
SPEAKER_03:Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening to Faster Horses, and we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much, and see you soon. Don't forget to check us out on Twitter at Faster Horses UX.
