Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology

Bagels are Boiled! (Art vs Science)

• Faster Horses • Season 2 • Episode 6

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In this episode regular hosts Mark Sutcliffe, Nick Tomlinson, and Paul Wilshaw discuss if UX (user experience) is an art or science.

We talk about what makes UX and how much is art and how much is science.

We also look into current design trends and explore how success is measured and by what standards.

In UX Tombola we have a new random topic to pick apart and take on humorous solutions.

More Lamas, more weirdness and fun, with a hint of Star Wars geekiness thrown in.

Support the show

All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses, a podcast about UX, UXR, UI design, products and technology (sometimes!)

🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler

👕 Get stickers and tees at https://www.paulwilshaw.com/shop/

The show is hosted by:
Paul Wilshaw
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilshaw/
and
Mark Sutcliffe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sutcliffemark/

If you want to suggest an idea, or join us on the show, send us a message 👆.

SPEAKER_05:

Hello, welcome to Faster Horses. This is series two of Faster Horses. If you've not heard of Series 1, do check it out. There's some great episodes on there, and this series is gonna be bigger, better, more exciting, more adventurous, and more random. So in this season, we've mixed it up and we've got three regular presenters now. So you've got myself, Paul Shaw, you've also got Nick Tomlinson and Mark Sutcliffe. And between the three of us, we'll be exploring with the occasional special guest everything from UX, UI, technology, front-end development and things in between. In this week's episode we discussed, eventually when we get around to it, is UX user experience an art or a science? Then later, we unleash the mayhem with UX Tumbolla. What will this week's subject be?

SPEAKER_04:

Let's record let's record this, he says, because this is good.

SPEAKER_05:

Good.

SPEAKER_03:

So you've um you you've opened a red bubble t-shirt shop.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Don't they take a massive cut?

SPEAKER_05:

They they do. Um I get like twenty twenty to thirty percent of your own design. I know, I know. But they they do the whole printing, it's uh it's a printing on demand service. So I don't have to worry about stock or anything like that. And they already have like a bit of a uh a kind of I suppose market really.

SPEAKER_01:

They've got a they've got a shopfront and stuff like that. It's a bit more like Etsy than say uh Shopify or something, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

Yes, yeah, yeah. So you've you've got that shopfront, you've kind of like, you know, they can promote it and stuff like that. So yeah, it's it's not a great margin, but um you know they're no kicking the pants. Yeah, I was just kind of like doing these doodles for myself, and I thought, you know what, I might as well just put them on a a shop.

SPEAKER_01:

Have you sold one?

SPEAKER_05:

I've sold, yeah, I've sold uh Boba Fett, but um oh my god, I've been through so many reviews and lately and and rightly so. I'm doing kind of like you know, fan illustrations of uh Star Wars stuff on there, and um yeah, you because you can't use any uh copyrighted material and things like that. So I did a lovely illustration for Speederbike and that got rejected.

SPEAKER_04:

I know so when you say reviews you mean um the copyright strike review, yeah. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

So that's that's the only thing, but yeah, I've tried to abstract it as much as possible. But I think my illustrations were too too lifelike. That was the problem. Yeah. Too good. Too good.

SPEAKER_04:

I learned the other day what um Boba Fett looks like behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_06:

Ooh.

SPEAKER_04:

Um and I feel like you could do an illustration of him. So I'm going to tell our listeners to just Google Boba Fett behind the scenes. Do you mean the actor that played him that died last year or the not in The Mandalorian, no, but that's not him, is it?

SPEAKER_02:

Is it there's technically two people who play Boba Fett. So there's the original guy, um Paul will probably know his name, who died last year. Who was the original like character actor and he originally did the voice, and then in the prequels they recast him um for um a New Zealand actor.

SPEAKER_03:

Is he from New Zealand?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, actually actually it wasn't recast because he's Django Fett, isn't he?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, no, because he retroactively recast it, didn't they? Because Django Fett.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, um Boba Fett is a clone of Django Fett, which means that it's the same person pulling him.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. And and there's Omega as well, if you've been watching the Bad Batch.

SPEAKER_01:

I have not. No, I couldn't get it. I couldn't get into that.

SPEAKER_05:

Which is uh so so she might pop up in the book of Boba. I think.

SPEAKER_04:

No, to me you've slipped into a completely different language already.

SPEAKER_05:

I know, I know. We're getting super geek mode now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

My geekiness lies in other places.

SPEAKER_05:

Left left right, up, up, down, down.

SPEAKER_01:

That's the Konami code.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah. I think it also works for uh oh god, my mum and dad are calling. Piss off. What have you cleaned your room? And now I've cleaned my room. No, I haven't, that's why I declined this one.

SPEAKER_07:

That's why you declined the cloud.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I need to get the llama kind of like to uh clean that. Wait, did you get that?

SPEAKER_02:

Lots of in the plastic bag under the bed.

SPEAKER_05:

I did I didn't get a llama, but because I uh fractured my elbow, I got a robot lawnmower. There is actually a thing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Is it like a rumbo but dangerous?

SPEAKER_05:

It's like, yeah. I don't know if it's day yeah, well, obviously if you lie down underneath. Yeah, of course it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_02:

If you sunbathed whilst it's doing its thing.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah. But I don't know if I'd like to lie down and have a rumba, kind of like hoover over me at the centre.

SPEAKER_04:

My god, I just happened to Google that now, and uh the price range on this about£370, all the way up to£4,500.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I was gonna say I I would have thought that um a robot lawnmower would be like five grand at least. The rumpers are like a grand, aren't they?

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I think it depends where you go. I think you can get them for about£300 now. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Depends on they'd lift shit on.

SPEAKER_04:

It'd be literally no, what they actually tend to do is they actually tend to smear shit all over the place. Horror stories I've heard where cats have have done their poo-poos on the on the carpet and they've gone back and it's just smeared everything.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh no!

SPEAKER_04:

This poor little robot tries desperately to clean it all up again and again. That's what robot purgatory is.

SPEAKER_05:

Cleaning cash, yes.

SPEAKER_04:

All over, just working it into your carpet.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I couldn't yeah, I couldn't think of anything worse. That's the that's the only problem with automation, but that is um you know, you can't guarantee that it's kind of like I suppose the equivalent with your um with your robot lawnmower is that it's just gonna actually fertilize, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04:

Because it will fling the shit all over your lawn. And um free fertilizer.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04:

Um and then of course your kids go and play in the back garden and come back blind.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh god, that that explains why Coco can't see Jackie.

SPEAKER_04:

She's had for so long.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh god, yeah. And eating those marbles hasn't helped.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well so speaking of um purgatory mark, I was talking to one of my friends this week who um listened to our most recent podcast. The complex system yeah, complex system. So um his review was what the fuck is going on?

SPEAKER_05:

Which I imagine is like Yeah, but I think see what the fuck is going on, yeah. I think that should go in the uh the the series caption, I think.

SPEAKER_03:

That's your next t-shirt.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That's our testimonial. We need to put that on Twitter.

SPEAKER_02:

A man. Just attribute it to a man.

SPEAKER_04:

So was this specifically at the complex system stuff or just podcast in general?

SPEAKER_02:

No, so this is it. So so we thought last week, oh last time we did this, didn't we, that we we were really good and we stayed on subject, and it was actually like a UX podcast with a few jokes in there, like a light-hearted UX podcast with some good takeaways, which it was, but then my friend I didn't get that. I think last I think last week's was like I keep saying last week's, it wasn't last week's, it was like two to three weeks ago now. Last episode was quite good in in terms of like we stayed on message, we took like you had some takeaways, but as a friend of mine who was listening to the podcast essentially as a favour, he had no idea what was going on because it he said after listening to it for like an hour plus what's UX? It's like I don't even understand what UX stands for. Like, so I was like, right, that probably wasn't the episode for you. But I took I told him to listen to the most recent first and work backwards rather than starting at the first one because I think series one was very like heady, sort of UX-y talk, wasn't it? Without many like detours and stuff. So I think it's probably better for him to go back. But the one before last was like just went almost immediately off the rails, from what I remember. So as has this.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, let me guess what? We haven't even got the topic.

SPEAKER_04:

Which is again, I'm fine with this. Um so the problem with the last one was that we weren't UX enough, and then it got progressive it gets progressively worse the further back in our catalogue you go.

SPEAKER_02:

That's how anything well no, not worse. I mean it depends what your opinion of what your takeaway is from this, or what you want your takeaway to be from this podcast. If you want an education, um start at series one, episode one, and and stop before series two if you want if you want to be entertained um purely entertained, start from episode one, series two, and if you're just a die hard fan, just listen to them all. I'd go with a hard fan. Yeah, see. Definitely.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm not even sure I'm a diehard fan.

SPEAKER_02:

I just I just feel like yes, we're a UX podcast, and we do want to stay on subject and we do want to show some insight, and we do want to engage UX's or people who want to find out about UX. But if you want an education, read a book.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

This is a I reckon this is first and foremost entertainment, or at least it I try to be entertaining.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm I'm waiting for the book deal to come through. So yeah. So once that's landed, then everybody will be super educated either by podcast.

SPEAKER_04:

We could go in for a kind of annual like hardback comic book compilation type.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I've yeah, I've ordered some crayons off Canada. So they're they're coming this week. So I'm I'm gonna be making a start on um Faster Horses the book. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

I like it.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Primary. So what what's the subject today, Poff?

SPEAKER_05:

What's the subject? Yeah. The subject is what is UX?

SPEAKER_02:

No, no.

SPEAKER_05:

Tough shit. Listen to episode one series one.

SPEAKER_04:

Uh the neonorman group.

SPEAKER_05:

Um but uh um today's subject is uh art uh art is UX user experience, uh art or science.

SPEAKER_02:

Discuss is UX an art or a science? Go on. Just to call it as you're hot, yes. No, I'm just I'm c I'm just confirming the button hear your hot take, Nick. Well I think it depends on what your definition of both those words are. So what is your definition of art and what is your definition of science? Because art exists for its own sake, it doesn't serve a purpose other than it exists.

SPEAKER_05:

I disagree. Art serves a massive purpose.

SPEAKER_02:

No, but no, but if you look at like almost the definition of art, let's do that now. Someone else talk whilst I type.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, shall I just describe what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Nick is now typing the word art into Google.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. You you can do this yourself.

SPEAKER_02:

It's the accessible it's the accessible podcast. That's the uh that's the screen reader.

unknown:

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh no, so I've always I've always thought that yeah, art exists for its own sake, but also it's it's there to kind of um as like a touchstone of social things that are going on at the time and like a point in time and a point in history. Is that is that what you're thinking, Paul?

SPEAKER_05:

Well, um I think it there's a lot of things. I think recently art is um a mental health uh drug that should be consumed by anybody.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but yeah, but so if you're if you're engaging in art, if you're producing some art, there's no you're just doing the art, aren't you? Just like you're not you're not like I'm gonna sit down at this table and I'm gonna draw a dandelion and then that dandelion's gonna get framed and go on the wall, and that's why I'm doing this. You're doing it to do it. That's what I mean by art exists for its own sake. Whereas like this this is what I've been trying to um sort of quantify in my head a little bit. So that there are different types of art. So if you think of like constructivism from like the early 19th century in Russia, if you look at that now, that looks like graphic design to like the Unish Nerd. Um, but at the time that was considered as art, that's not the the the form of it um was just important as the function, and and the idea of like thinking about the function was starting to be introduced then, but that's still art.

SPEAKER_05:

Ooh, now interesting, you mentioned function there, because I think um there's a lot of crossover between function and I think the art as a function is is key. So what you know, kind of what does the art want to do? You know, kind of sometimes it's you know a pastime for somebody, sometimes it's to entertain, educate, um, reduce loud coffins in the background.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh let's let's let like let's continue the debate then. So like if make so all those things that you've just uh described there could apply to making bread at the weekend, right? But but and there are artisanal bakers and things like that. But if you boil if you boil baking bread down to its most simple perfunctory, like boil your bread.

SPEAKER_03:

Wait, have you have you never had um a bagel mark?

SPEAKER_04:

I've never had boiled bread, no.

SPEAKER_03:

You've never had a bagel?

SPEAKER_04:

Is that boiled? Well, I'll never have one again.

SPEAKER_02:

Just on principle, they're absolutely delicious, but I've never eaten.

SPEAKER_04:

I did not know that. Yeah, yeah. We do learn things here at this point.

SPEAKER_02:

That's why they're like shiny and sticky. Yeah. So boily bread kids. And what were we talking about? Yeah, so if you reduce that down to its like most simple terms, baking is science, isn't it? You follow the instructions, you add chemicals, they react, you add heat, it reacts, it produces bread, and you eat it. So so what's baking? Is bacon an art? Is bacon a science? Is it both? Is it subjective?

SPEAKER_04:

Is it objective? I think it's definitely both. Um because well so first of all, my definition of art would be that it's like primarily an expression of something, usually an expression of something that would otherwise, you know, wouldn't be easily done through words and symbols and numbers. Um and so you use another form from traditional art interpretive dance. But what you have with that scient uh with the um the making analogy is that you end up using a scientific method as your tool to express yourself. So your scientific part is your process, i.e. how you make the bread. And I'd say the artistic part is what you do with it.

SPEAKER_02:

Any reason to do it.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. I mean I think it's very noble to make art uh make bread itself. Um or as I think to make quote unquote art, you know, um for its own sake itself can be seen as a little contrived. So I think there's a lot of those social cues and social elements in there that uh uh and cultural elements that come into what constitutes um the right purpose for doing something. But that's again that's because bread has a s an al a secondary or well probably primarily purpose to serve in being eaten as opposed to being viewed or or or interpreted. But you can create, you know, very dirty bread.

SPEAKER_02:

So UX then, by uh with that new understanding. What is it?

SPEAKER_05:

Is it is it science or let me let me give you a quote from uh philosophy now. Always a good read. Uh so beauty is the measure of effect or emotion uh in the context of the perceiver. That's what art is. So subjective. So subject well, yeah. Um so so gauge in successful art, you know, this is what we do in UX, isn't it? We gauge successful user experiences. Uh, you know, I I'm gonna keep uh lengthening UX out for your friend who may or may not listen to this episode. Uh but it's the yeah, it's the gauge of that success successful bloody right. Let me try again. It's the gauge of successful communication between participants, so the the artist and the viewer. And if If that gauge is uh done right and you can get that message and get that concept, then that's successful art, you know. But at the same time, you know, as making bread, I think you know this is gonna be a common theme in this episode. Um, it's it's all down to you know, why pay three four pounds for an artisan loaf of bread if you know you've your 50p uh Aldi version does exactly the same of what you want.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm I'm so glad you just said that because I was almost thinking exactly the same thing. So there's yeah, there's like degrees to bread. There's like the there's the artisan, which is someone who's lovingly put together um and it's taken time and made like a sourdough and done it properly, and then there's like milk roll, which costs like 30p a bag. And they're both they're both bread, but one is being produced by a corporation to make money, and one's been produced by someone who enjoys to make bread. Um I I've been thinking about like you UX and like the how people seem to concentrate on how it how it looks, and you know, arguably good UX is beautiful, but like what looks good is still I well still can be viewed in objective terms. So I say quite a lot, like when someone creates something like a visual, I'll say like that is objectively bad, and like you know, people laugh at that because they're like, Well, how can it how can you think something visual is objectively bad? But there are things as scrutiny as you can put it through, like you know, like the golden ratio or like colour theory or composition, these are all criteria you can judge an image by that therefore proves that it's objectively good or bad.

SPEAKER_04:

And um I think that But is that is that objectivity not just based on consensus?

SPEAKER_01:

Isn't everything based on consensus?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, well one could argue that you know I won't go so far so far as to say is uh gravity exists because we believe in it because that's a nickname for that. It seems a bit disqualified.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but but things like the golden ratio or the golden line or composition is based in psychology, isn't it? So like ace a-sized paper, for example, a-sized paper exists purely because the human eye and the human brain find that ratio more pleasing to the eye. There's no other reason for it.

SPEAKER_05:

It's also a cue from nature as well. So, yeah, the god the golden ratio, you know, you can be found in lots of plants and cauliflowers, uh, sunflowers, things like that. So and it's snail shells. Snail shells, yeah. And it's kind of what humans have become accustomed to. And it this is where we kind of like, you know, as as humanity, we look for these simple patterns, and we want to kind of make sense of these patterns, and that's why the golden ratio is so successful. Um, because it's those patterns ingrained into our uh uh or hardwired into our brains that we look for, and we look for those patterns, and if those patterns match what our brains are expecting, it becomes an easier uh piece of art or piece of UX to process, and it's all about that quick process of being able to kind of understand what that visual is. So, you know, if if art's too complex and you've got so many hidden meanings into it, you know, you are aiming for a niche audience with it, cool, but you know, and I think this is this is where consumerism and some some you know where we all kind of like you know equate success, you know, and art kind of like you know, is the same as well, is you know, the more paintings you sell, the more books you sell, the more um you know, t-shirts you sell, the more successful that art is over you know the the what is deemed as not good art. But that isn't always necessarily right, but that's what we've become kind of like the gauge and mechanism. And the same with UX, you know, it's how many more sales, how many more uh you know products can you sell through the site, how many, you know, reducing the bounce rate on sites, reducing people dropping off, not filling out forms, not making, and essentially making sales, and that that is the gauge of art, you know, that's that's where we live into. Um and it yeah, you know, and that that again in itself is a simple measurement of how we deem what is good and what is bad.

SPEAKER_04:

You're right. I think it's it's interesting to observe how what you know it's a cross-reference, what you've just said, with like how what is successful changes over time and what people respond to artistically changes over time as well. Um so that the if you think about uh the principle of beauty that you mentioned earlier, um that's that that's changed drastically over the past 200, 300 years, it continues to change as well. Um what is considered beautiful um it changes from culture to culture as well, even in the current times. Yeah, yeah. So I think it's just interesting to observe that what you're dealing with is a a metric that when measured might not make a great deal of sense over a long amount of time, but certainly can be observed in kind of a present instant or over a shorter period of time and then reflected in that space. Um and whereas I'd argue with a scientific principle there's far more longevity to it, you know. But my um my thoughts about UX as a science or art um is principally around that end result um and that interpretation. Um I don't think there's a a tremendous amount of space. There's not supposed to be a tremendous amount of space in interpreting what your interface does. Because if you have two users who interpret something differently, then well, if it's affordance, if it's designed that way, then that's excellent uh because you give them the means to do more than one thing in more than one way. But if it isn't meant to be doing that, then you have one person who's got it right and the other person who's got it wrong, and the responsibility of that is on you as a designer um for not creating a more kind of inclusive or holistic or whatever um uh design process.

SPEAKER_02:

I think you just nailed that without even thinking about it. So your your word in there was um what the thing does, and that's it. That's UX. So UX consists of like many, many things, and one of those things is the UI and and the flair and how good you are at the flair of designing the UI is part of the good UX experience, but the whole that that's made up from those individual things is the UX experience and it's what the thing does. So, my sort of genuine answer to the question is UX and art are a science. I think it probably leans more towards being a science because of the scientific method that you employ to like make assertions, test them through various ways, validate them and like repeat. I think that is a scientific method, but you you can then add flair to it, and by being like a good graphic designer, you can make your UI beautiful at the same time. So I think it's a it's a science that comprises of artistic um fields as well.

SPEAKER_05:

Um I think it all comes like let me bring it back to baking. I think it all comes down to ingredients, doesn't it? That and those if you get those ingredients right. I'm gonna give you um uh Dieter Rams back in 1976, um, you know, before we were all born. Bye bye. Honest. Um, you know, he said uh, you know, good design, and he had these ten commandments for what a good design is. Uh so it's innovative, useful, aesthetically pleasing, understandable, unobtrusive, honest, long-lasting, detailed and thorough, sustainable and simple. I think though those for me are your key ingredients. You know, they're the science behind the art. Uh, and if you get all those 10 things right, then you're you know, you're doing you know a really good job. And I think here's where you know I think this fits nicely into design systems, and I feel like design systems leans more into the science uh over art, you know, especially if you look at Brad Foss uh and his uh methodology of having the periodic table of atoms, molecules, organisms uh that make up that design system, you know, but that leads into sustainability and long-lasting. You know, if you've got a good design system, then it shouldn't age that quickly, it shouldn't uh be overly complex, it shouldn't be, you know, kind of like really in your face, but and it should be understandable. And you know, I think this is where sometimes as UX people we we fall down because we are so close to what we're designing, it becomes understandable by a small group of people, but then when you put it out into the wider world, it's not understandable at all. Uh, and I I've just gone through something, you know, this last week doing doing a project, uh, and I'm I'm appeasing to developer needs over what users want, and there's a lot of basis around this technology, the platform, uh kind of what's already out there in the product, but for me that doesn't matter because customers don't really care about that under-the-hood stuff, and exactly the same with art or with bacon. Um and yeah, my mum and my mum and dad are texting me saying I'm gonna make it up. Yeah, um uh and yeah, and it's those things that you know kind of that you know, kind of like that that little bubble, and it and I think that this applies to art as well. If you get in a little bubble of that, you know, you get that group thinking and um I like group thinking to some point, but it also then stops a bit of innovation and a bit of usefulness as well. So yeah, it's it's uh I'm waffling on on it now, so I'm gonna let somebody else do.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, well, I mean your timer bill went that was your goal. You've had your time now, Paul.

SPEAKER_05:

Uh let me go get the bread.

SPEAKER_04:

I really liked what you're saying though about you know the scientific part being the foundation of what you're creating here. Because I think almost it's almost book-ended. Um at the you know, at the very core of it, you've got a scientific process, you've got scientific methods, you've got scientific principles, and the output if you're working into a design system, is a set of constituent parts, um, you know, a kit that can be used to build something more, you know, and build an interface, and and it's when you're building the interface that the the interpretation comes into it and stuff like that. Um as well as when you're designing the components, of course. I think it's it's not uh it's not as clear cut as I'm trying to make it. But um I think also when it comes to being used, we are creating something at the end of the day that's designed to be consumed, that's designed specifically to be used. And that I think going back to what um Nick said right at the start about art being something created for its own sake, I think that is I think the expression part of art is something that's principally for itself, and it's almost as if the societal and cultural impact of a piece of art is a byproduct of it, that measure of success. If you have an artist who just can't help themselves but create something, is definitely a byproduct of that um expression, that initial expression or that intention to express. Um, so I think what we have with UX is not that, basically. We have something that is primarily meant to be um consumed and used and not so much interpreted but understood. Um and then on top of that, and this works as well because you've got the aesthetic um aesthetics usability effect, haven't you, as well? Uh if you create something artistic and artisanal and beautiful, you give yourself quite a lot of purchase to to get things pretty wrong. Um because people will give you a lot of leeway if they think it's pretty, um, and that's obviously an effect.

SPEAKER_02:

That's a good point, yeah. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_04:

So I think why you know we're talking about the scientific principles that of good UX and of of solid and sound you know scientific methods to create that, but the end result um you could weigh in all on all the way on the art side of things, and you might create something that's pretty flimsy, but your users, at least in the short term, would react well to.

SPEAKER_02:

You just raised a really good point then, Mark. It's just set my brain off racing. So you've just said like the science of good UX, right? So the adverse to that is the art of dark UX. Because if you think about like being a con man or being a shyster, that's not a science, is it? That's like that's almost like an art. Being able to bullshit someone into doing something, being able to bullshit someone into buying a used car that they don't want or need, I'd see that as more of an art. And I reckon you dark UX seems almost more of an art because it's not it's not spoken about. There's no I can't imagine as many textbooks dedicated to like this is how this is how you do Dark UX.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh you'd be surprised.

SPEAKER_02:

I probably would, yeah. And if that doesn't exist, I might I might write it to be honest.

SPEAKER_05:

I think there's yeah, there's other you know what? I think dark UX is probably more of a science than than art. Because it's yeah, it's a lot about psychology, um, which is classed as a social science.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, but it's also about like it's about like evasion and thinking around corners.

SPEAKER_05:

So like as manipulation, that's what I see dark UX as.

SPEAKER_02:

It is, but it's also like it's testing the borders of like even what's legal, and that is that is like an intelligence thing, isn't it? It's thinking outside the box. So like if you've got to have certain um colour contrast and stuff on your website, but you you're just on the board, like you think, oh, I could I could tweak this to be just on the border of what's like legally permissible, then someone might miss it. Um and then they they'll think that the unsubscribe button is on like the next page or whatever. I'm thinking of the um when I unsubscribed from um Audible like last month, and it literally took me through four to five pages um asking me different questions, and and the no once unsubscribe button was essentially hidden on that page. And and that is like, yeah, obviously there's there's science considerations and psychology considerations, but you've got to have this like nefarious flair to your thinking to even come up with thinking of doing that in the first place.

SPEAKER_04:

I think you get the same thing when you get a quote unquote creative accountant, don't you? Which is yeah, that so scientifically speaking we have laws and principles, but operating outside of those laws requires creativity. And um I'd say that's probably because um the laws are you know products of stuff that's been measured, it's a product of stuff that's been observed, but you need to the creativity to to uh be flexible around those those laws, to interpret them differently, but and and to to create a new hypothesis that the laws don't quite cover.

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. There's it's the interpretation, yeah. It's the interpretation of the rule set that makes it an art, I think.

SPEAKER_05:

Maybe I think I think though, this this is oh dogs in the background. Um this is all down to company ethics, if you ask me, and transparency. So I'd I'd be yeah, I think it's you know, if this is the direction you're putting in your website and your service and you're putting in those kind of things, is that an ethical company?

SPEAKER_02:

And we've heard plenty of stories that yeah, but I I think the ethics of UX is a completely different subject, though.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh yeah, it totally is, totally is. Uh yeah, it's that it's that transparency, I think, with Dark UX. Um, but yeah, it's another subject for another episode.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean whether it's right or wrong is is a debate we can have in another hour episode. But yeah, that's it's it's a really good point.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I'm I'm gonna play devil's advocate here and say UX is definitely an art and it's an art form. Because I think when good UX and when good UX people, you know, uh have interviewed a fair a fair few people, it's that original uh innovative and go back to the Dita Rams principles, it's that innovative uh thinking that really makes a company excel. Look look at you know some of the big companies out there, Apple, Google, and things like that. And that where they've been innovative on their design, you know, think about the first iPhone. You know, that was a massive departure away from mobile phones. It had a a screen, it didn't have physical keyboard, uh, it didn't have any physical buttons whatsoever, and it was all you know slow as dog shits, but it was pretty groundbreaking that it it challenged what the norms were and it didn't take on that um repetitive, you know, oh this this is work, this is another Nokia, this is another thing. And I think that's where the art really, really comes into it and if that's done well that's where you become uber successful. Yeah I think I think I agree with that.

SPEAKER_02:

I think I think you just can't no we if we keep no we just keep hitting them up like a little yeah it's to help our SEO isn't it like the corporate slut we are someone up by eventually like Squarespace construct a website um yeah no I like that I think I think you've just you've just pushed me over the line there I think I think UX is a science good ux is an art I think that's my official answer. I think I think but what you were saying there about it being good UX that's the difference that's kind of what I was getting at with the dark UX thing. Yeah it's it takes a little bit of a flair to be like you know we could switch this on its head just to think that in the first place is is like an artistic like oh hang on a minute like a a scientist wouldn't necessarily think like this but like a nefarious artist would be like if we just do the opposite of all this shit we can keep people subscribed for like months on end.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh take Banksy Banksy's a prime example uh he did the uh shredding so he sold a piece of work at work uh an auction and then instantly shredded it and that's the exact opposite um you know and that in itself that act was a piece of art well it became more valuable after he shredded it didn't it did yeah it did and I don't kind of backfired on him a bit yeah I don't know if that was his intention I I think that was exactly his intention because my personal belief is that Banksy is a very shrewd businessman.

SPEAKER_02:

Well yeah well my personal belief is Banksy is and has always been a group of people not one person. I I reckon he's a fat scouser that's why wow okay um just painted that picture for you actually it is he actually part times as a cab driver just that's how he gets about on noticed yeah well there was um I was actually listening to some uh to something last week about we think like I've never actually googled to find out who he is because I think it's on the internet like it's it's at this point people know who it is but it's definitely like a team of people at this point but someone thinks it's a guy from a band because um every time that band plays in a well not every time but there's a correlation between that band playing in a place and a new Banksy popping up or or it's just a super fan of that band.

SPEAKER_05:

Well almost everyone who does street art these days is a super fan of Banksy are they because it's all just so well the majority of it's like so derivative and just exactly and the funniest thing to me about that shredding story is the poor sad sap who went and shredded his own Banksy painting and immediately destroyed all value it had so this is um I I'm gonna I'm gonna bring this around to another subject you brought up uh a while ago Nick about um about Design Memphis um yeah Nick do you want to just describe what Design Memphis is it's uh it's the internet now essentially it's if you've if you've been on a corporation's website who have uh refreshed their website in the past five years you've probably seen it it's oddly proportioned noodle limbed people with no illustration outlines nine times out of ten produced in like more often than not pastel colours um of scenes of um people sitting around the homes on beanbags reading their iPads essentially that's an excellent description yeah and what it is and I think this is this is where then I I'm gonna I'm gonna this is because that's become a popular medium and we've seen kind of internet traffic and people kind of like turn into that and going like oh yeah I'd rather much see uh noodle on people or um rubber housed limbed people to use the uh original animation term from like Popeye and Betty Boo um those those things you know I think because they were successful somewhere uh and people have been turned off against stock imagery it's you know once you've seen one uh hot female uh answering the phone to you when when in reality it's some call center in uh you know wherever in the world so it probably isn't that person it you know I think people are kind of like turned off by that and it's been so prevalent I think we're gonna see a tipping point soon of these overhos people.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah absolutely everything that you see particularly in the corporate world is a reaction to whatever came before so as like an illustrator and someone who like does this a little bit like paid and has an interest in it in their own time and kind of always has I saw that style coming um and I recognised the trend picking up and the thing that preceded it um sort of helps you understand how it came about and it it's just a pendulum swinging from one side to the other so the thing that came before this corporate Memphis style was like vectored well proportioned beautiful women very similar to like headcandy kind of album covers do you do you remember those? Yeah yeah um if you Google if you're listening to this if you google headcande that was kind of the style it was very crisp vectored images um where the people looked a lot more human um to be honest it might even have been like misproportioned but in the other way like stretched out like supermodel style and then it's gone it's the pendulum has swung from that style to the other direction which was more this more kind of um an illustrate like it looks like it's created by a new up and coming illustrator like someone fresh out of uni it's a bit rough it's a bit misproportioned the they all look slightly more real world in terms of like they're not you know they're sitting around the house in big sweaters or they're giving the loved one a cuddle or they're petting a dog or something like that. And it's that yeah the pendulum's like swung back in that other way and I saw that style coming and now everyone's it's just literally like oh that's good let's let's do that let's do what they're doing. Everyone's piling on the bank wagon now it's such a cliche already that something's gonna happen pretty soon where some well in fact we've already seen it they intentionally looked at like Morbius's stuff who's an illustrator from like the 80s French absolutely fantastic they've introduced that style into their their website and stuff now and I think it's gonna become more abstract I think there's going to be probably less people it's gonna be like shapes it's gonna be like strange landscapes almost like the 80s or the four neo 80s artwork that you see these days which is like the squared lines the like weird um gradient pyramids in the background and stuff like that it's gonna become a little bit more like that but a little uh more homely a little more like art looking like it's been you like actual paints and stuff have been used for it. I think people are going to fade to the background and it's gonna become a bit looser.

SPEAKER_04:

It's a really interesting idea that I think what I like about that is the step towards surrealism and the step towards abstraction means that there'll be more space to include things that are more culturally specific, culturally relevant I mean of course it'll somehow manage to be homogenous and you know we'll conversation in three years time will probably be exactly the same but replace corporate Memphis Memphis with Morbius type illustration and and and what we're saying is Morbius type illustration is whatever comes next. But I think the ability because one similar illustration I saw that I really liked was um I can't remember why it what where it was it was just somewhere floating around Instagram or something. And it was that kind of illustration just with a a huge Japanese dragon casually involved in the scene and that sort that kind of thing I think that kind of dreamlike interpretation I think will speak to quite a lot of people and that slow shift towards something like that is is going to well I say slow um it's only slow because trying to get someone to take a a corporation to take a dive on a s on an art store like that is a difficult thing of itself. I think it's going to be these design softwares that pioneer in that field.

SPEAKER_05:

I I was thinking this when you were talking about that that um I did um Google um head candy and I I nearly brought some shampoo. Yeah because um because that's what you find um but is it I wonder if the style though is from kind of what you see and what you consume as a child. So like a lot of the the styles you see around on the internet now is very adventure time based uh and it's that bright colourful colours you know and those those rubber hose kind of arm people is is very much that and I wonder if that plays into some of our interpretation uh of what it is um and I think the easiest thing in the world you know we we talk about low-hanging fruit uh all the time in UX uh and you know it's it's that risk adversion stuff that you do that you know is going to be accepted that you know is going to be palatable to go in towards a different style you know why why do something risky there? Why when another company's already proven that this works and I think you know we we do it a lot in UX and you know kind of like you know we steal when don't steal but we we know that other people have done a lot of user research in this area uh and they're successful so we investigate this and that's happened all the time in marketing you know the SWOT analysis where you look at competitors what are competitors doing how can we be better but similar to them uh and and and uh you know and you talked about Robin Hood there you know and that that was born out of frustration of using other products uh and and the same the same as kind of like happened throughout history the interesting thing about the Robin Hood thing is that it's um it's equally as jaded though because that won an award and the reason I heard about it is because it won an award so it again it's the pendulum it's like on one side you've got everyone else is doing this so it must work let's copy them and then on the other side is let's do something new but like tell everyone about it and win an award for innovation.

SPEAKER_02:

It's like the consumer fashion runway dial it up to 11 this is what we're doing and then everyone looks at that and goes right let's all start doing that because we're all individuals too this I mean this is this is exactly the model of Primark and you know those those companies you know they look at that high-end fashion and what parts of that can they replicate cheaply and put out to the masses yeah I mean it's there's a there's an amazing bit in um the devil wears Prada that explains this process really really well where you know the main character's wearing a blue jumper and she's just like I'm not into fashion I'll just wear what you know I think you'll find it's a rule yeah okay which is a shade as blue lovely well that's exactly the point she's yeah yeah yeah it is it's it's brilliant and she just says basically this is how it works you might think you've not made a choice but actually these choices were made for you years ago and and that you wearing that is a reaction to a choice I made basically and that's how this works.

SPEAKER_05:

And I think I think this is where your cultural upbringing comes into it and you know I mentioned cartoons and what you consume and what you what you see as good advertising on TV or you know kind of YouTube or where however TikTok and things like that that then gets filtered down and and replicated and the best bits are then taken out into other other areas. I mean you know let let me bring this full back to the Star Wars how we started this episode you know and that that was you know it wasn't a brand new story it wasn't super innovative because it took kind of uh lots of kind of things off different cultures well it's it's a literal interpretation of the hero's journey isn't it yeah yeah but it was done that way intentionally yeah but it was you know it was almost like a bit of fan art it was a bit of play to that and then some of the things that had been learnt along the way from kind of some of his uh George Lucas's earlier films as well well it was um he wanted to make Flash Gordon originally and couldn't get the rights could he so he made something that was uh like an appropriation of that but was like uh not copyright infringing yeah anyway just like the hero's journey we've taken that conversation full circle and next up is uh UX Tom Bowler yes who's didn't it it did yeah it did for us it might not do for our listeners I I um do did we answer that question do you think so uh Mark art or science um I want to say both in equal measure I'd thought though I'd say alright I'd say scientific with um scientific with um Vietnamese fundamental artistic principles and artistic requirements and artistic need to survive I think Paul needs all science and art to survive yeah I like that Paul I I think I I I tend to lean that it's more art when you need the science ingredients to make it there you go yeah so the the thing well so the thing that triggered this entire conversation is someone said somewhere um that if you take the science out of UX it's not UX anymore.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah um which I think is true and interesting but yeah I think that what I said earlier UX is a science good UX is an art which is another sound bite that we can have those little sound bites aren't we that's what the show's going to become essentially just why I'm here if I bring nothing else but it's yeah and and to caveat that I think as well it's the gauge it's the gauge of measurement use to define what's successful and what's not and um speaking of gauges they're kind of a full circle so again coming back round uh to UX Tom Bowler so who who's got the machine uh this time oh go on let me let me tick that big brown tombler shaped parcel that I sent you this crack that open it it's the oh yeah it's the round thing in the package isn't it UX Tombola bring it in yeah but I put it I put it under my desk here we go it's uh became my footstool here we go it's on the table there we go spin it's all oh yeah please Nick Nick has he got no sorry I mean he's just he's just composing it now he's just planned out come on it's your extembolo wheel it in it's about the size of a small bathroom bin you don't have a bin in the bathroom you animal you flush your earbuds down the toilet yeah no I tend to well for me it's empty uh shampoo bottles and stuff but you flush down the toilet and then you and then you flush the shampoo bottles down the toilet yeah very robust flush mechanism I'm only joking never flush anything like that down the toilet yes put all your q tips in the big throwing out the window yeah or if it's not an old lady or in a nearby canal or both why why the old lady I just um because they've you know they probably said something you know it's a little bit uncomfortable they probably didn't like or low i thought I thought you were gonna gracefully get yourself out of that situation Mark but it just went into downhill through I'm gonna dig myself out of this hole speaking of speaking of gracefully getting ourselves out of this situation the actu the actual subject this week is shaving which takes place in the battle what okay okay very graceful thank you so we're actually on subject already so shaving the UX of shaving um I've got a beard I was gonna say we're probably not the best people in the world to answer this question. You're right so very sculpted facial hair so yeah so well I'll defer to you as well yeah I think um it's a confusopoly is is shaving at the minute that word again is confusopoly. That's not my word and it's not a real word but it's the idea of um a company or a subject matter or whatever giving you so much choice um with so so little difference between them that you end up not knowing what any of them are. It's like toothbrushes and shampoo as well all things that take place in the bathroom like innovation quote air quotes yeah innovation for its own sort of exactly and you get this with uh I've noticed immediately off topic uh with tooth pairs at the second there are a billion types of toothpairs but when I was in San There is no um like ultimate toothpaste which is about eighteen pounds a tube and it includes these ingredients that do whiten your teeth and whatnot. And it just the first time I saw it it made me think well what the fuck are all these other toothpairs doing?

SPEAKER_02:

My face for the past that makes me laugh about that is that that companies will come out and they'll be like, new toothpaste with this ingredient, the other stuff's fucking rubbish. And and I'm like, Well, the other stuff you were selling me six months ago. So in six months, this is gonna be rubbish as well, isn't it? You're not pulling the wool over my eyes, toothpaste.

SPEAKER_04:

All there, Nick.

SPEAKER_02:

All there consume consumed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Shave shaving though is is is part fashion trend and part consumerism, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04:

So I'd argue that many a fashion trend is consumerism.

SPEAKER_05:

Well, yeah, that's that's why I say equal measure. Uh yeah, Mark. Yeah. Um I it kind of this this reminds me, I was watching The Great last last year. If you've not watched it, it's a brilliant series.

SPEAKER_02:

The Great?

SPEAKER_05:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it about a man who loses his car keys?

SPEAKER_05:

It's about uh Peter the Great. Uh yeah, the Russian That sounds a lot more interesting. Yeah, yeah. Oh, the comedy. Yeah, it is yeah, it is comedy. Um and he outlawed beards. Uh so everybody had to shave, and there was one guy who said, like, my face is hideous under my beard, and he made him shave, and then it uh it came back into the royal court and went, oh god, you were right, and executed. Yeah, yes, it was the way it was, yes. Uh that face is a crime against humanity. Um when you mentioned shaving, I thought that and I thought, yeah, hilarious. But it also became uh, you know, shaving is oh god, it's so bad, isn't it? It you know, I I hate shaving because I get rashes, the whole the whole ethos behind it is and and and when I was younger, I remember I remember working for a a large supermarket chain um who made me shave my stubble off just because uh filling shelves at night you needed to look presentable. Which which is crazy, isn't it? And then you know uh and then depend depending on your religion, you could get away with a beard, you couldn't get away with a beard, and it's it was a whole it was a whole shit show of kind of like you know why are you making me do something that is is really kind of like painful, it hurts my skin, I get bloody bleeding all the time, every time I do it, I hate it, and then then I'm feeding into this corporate monster that makes shit razor blades that basically once you use them once they are damaged.

SPEAKER_02:

I um I once heard shaving described this. Might be just a heads up the most controversial thing that ever gets said on this podcast. So just be ready for this. This is not my opinion. This is something not my opinion, it's something I heard. I thought it'd be an interesting talking point. Shaving is the male period.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh, that is controversial. Um I disagree because uh shaving is ultimately optional.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, this is it. So I was um walking through a market, an outdoor market in the northern quarter of uh in Stevenson Square, like last year. Uh no, it won't have been last year, it'll have been the year before.

SPEAKER_05:

Getting you free pizza from Rudy's.

SPEAKER_02:

No, no, no. No, unfortunately, no, I was paying through the nose for bits of driftwood and and painted blue and stuff. Um, yeah, so I was walking through this outdoor market, it will have been 2019, won't it? Because outdoor markets haven't existed since then. And uh I walked past this guy who was selling beard oil, and he would he literally was like, Hey mate, beard oil, and I just looked at him and I was like, I'm sorry, this is not a choice, it's a lack of intervention. I've got I've got a beard because I'm lazy, not because I think it looks good.

SPEAKER_04:

See, I'm the exact opposite to that. I'm I am very lazy as a person, but not when it comes to my facial hair. Um, and I've had my moustache and little Gortino for uh ten years.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, and um you had it at 13, Mark. I'm 26 now. But yes, I did, incidentally. And uh it was mocked quite heavily for the legs. But um and I mean Chris, my my brother, have uh very sensitive skin, and Chris went to a barber and had a cutthroat share. Um and apparently the he didn't get cut, but his skin was glowing red afterwards, and the barber felt incredibly guilty because of you know how his skin had reacted to it. I think Chris didn't say it was he felt any discomfort. But um I think like anything that is in the cosmetic or the beauty kind of product sphere, there are so many different well, everyone's skin is different, isn't it? Um and this introduction of beard oils all of a sudden, I've used um I use a moisturizer that has beard oils in it as well. Um and I can honestly say I've I can I've seen zero difference. Um but that could be because I've got extremely coarse hair. I have to use um what is literally called Expedition Strength Moustache Wax Expedition Strength.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, we discovered the reason for that being branded as such, didn't you? We watched uh Lost City of Zed.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh exactly, because the brand of um um mustache wax, and this is a sponsor I do want, is called Captain Fawcett. And it was Captain Fawcett who went on that expedition in the Amazon to find the Lost City of Zed.

SPEAKER_02:

Um and curious little unmustachioid in the film though, I think, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_04:

Um I think it depending on different times. I think sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't.

SPEAKER_02:

When he was lost in the in the jug, but he don't really have to go to his mustache. So let's talk like the actual UX of it then. So you shave Mark.

SPEAKER_04:

So like run us through the process and some pain points and so the first thing I've noticed is I I have to have had a shower first, otherwise the skin on my face is um it's too dry, basically. And splashing it with a bit of water isn't enough. It needs to effectively be steamed, if you will, to open up, I assume, the pores and the volume.

SPEAKER_02:

It opens the pores and it actually makes the hairs stand up straighter as well, so you get a closer shave.

SPEAKER_04:

So that'll be that'll be why, because I have fallen into the trap and will do again where I've I've um had a shower in the morning, not had a shave, and then decided later on in the day that because I a plan has come up or I'm seeing family or whatever, especially my grandparents. I always like to be very presentable around my grandparents, but they wouldn't notice. But you know, it's my respect for them.

SPEAKER_05:

But they would if you weren't.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. Um so I'll have a shave there, and then I my face comes out in this blotchy, bloody mess. It's like it's just it's not very pleasant. It doesn't hurt, and it's just a result of a very coarse razor blade over over my skin. Because I don't change my razor blade often. Um, because I found if I'm using a fresh one, um it's not that I'll cut my myself more, it's that um it'll damage my skin more.

SPEAKER_02:

So a couple of tips then, Mark, under the guise of UX, back from when I used to shave, because I I looked into this at the time and it it it's been a long time, so I could be wrong. Feel free to correct me anyone, if anyone's even listening to this. But so a couple a couple of tips then. So really hot water on your face before you shave, as hot as you can stand it, to open the paws and make the hair stand up. Um, a sharp new blade, and I always used to run that sharp new blade under hot water water first, just to essentially like disinfect it, and any like um bacteria or pot um spots that had popped or anything that were on the blade from last time, like you're washing off, and it's not gonna get in your paws or the cups.

SPEAKER_05:

My mental image of this place like crumb crusty brown uh cups up really.

SPEAKER_02:

So do that.

SPEAKER_04:

I remember once I took this to the extreme and I was um I can't remember the full context of it, because so this is gonna sound like I'm a legitimate psychopath. Uh, but I was using uh boiling water. I wasn't splashing it on my face or anything, but I was at least rinsing the blade with that for that very purpose. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And then but then you put the red hot blade on your face then my face melting as I drag away everything.

SPEAKER_05:

There is there is there is another scientific reason for having a warm blade is because the the metal is more malleable.

SPEAKER_02:

And it goes round your face, but it goes, yeah, yeah. There you go, there's another tip. So yeah, shave. Um apparently you're supposed to shave with the grain of the hair on your face, but you you do get a closer shave if you go against it.

SPEAKER_04:

And then yeah, I found that that the going with thing is is probably the effect of that is probably minute because I I'd go with the general hair map, which is a thing of your face, yeah. Um but I found that um I don't feel any any more or less agitation if I go against the ground.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um and then my fight, like this is the pro tip really. After you've finished, freeze in cold water on the areas that you've shaved, and then add like your moisturizer or your after shave or whatever you're putting on your face because the freezing cold water closes your pores back up again, and the gunk that you're putting on your face doesn't go into your paws and cause irritation or spots. So that's the pro tip and the takeaway is like freezing cold water after you've shaved. Do you do that?

SPEAKER_04:

Uh typically no, because give that a go and see if it works. I absolutely hate freezing cold water.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, well, it yeah, it gives you the benefit of like really waking you up. When I can try when I can stand it, I try and have uh a freezing cold shower for like a minute or two after I've had a shower in the morning, and it just it's it's amazing.

SPEAKER_04:

See, I've tried this before, and it's the same, it's exactly the same um principle as when everyone was telling me to go for a walk, um, and they would cheer me up. And so I've had that. I I thought, okay, everyone's telling me what jolly good sport having a cold shower is. So I did it, and I felt irritated, tired still, and miserable.

SPEAKER_02:

So not not only at the end of it am I miserable now, I'm cold in the world. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. And likewise I went for that walk, people was every everyone was telling me to go for it, they say it would be jolly good. Um, of course, the caveat is they're always with someone, but of course, they didn't think of that. So I walked around beautiful Manchester. Um probably rain or drizzle, uh, because it was good for me, it was determinately good for me. And I came back and I felt exactly the same, apart from slightly damp and considerably more miserable. And I could have stayed in the comfort of my own home to feel that miserable. So um yeah, that's my response to your recommendation of this cold chair. We're nonsense, it's just not going to happen.

SPEAKER_02:

Alright, well, at least take move on the splash of cold water on the face. I'll give it a go, yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Your skin will thank you. That that's um moderately less egregious than soaking your entire body.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm gonna bring up here uh electric razors. What's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02:

Um, good time saving, not as close to shave, so you have to do it more regularly if you're interested in keeping clean.

SPEAKER_04:

Funnily enough, when I mentioned my looking presentable for my uh grandparents, very often, so we go on a holiday every year, um, just for the Lake District for my grandparents and and some of my family. And my granddad will often sit at the dining table with his electric rails, absolutely nothing to pick up any hair.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it's supposed like the depending on what style you've got, the whole point is it's supposed to collect the offcuts, and then you clean it out after every shave, but it doesn't necessarily work out that way.

SPEAKER_04:

My granddad always boasts about how cheap this wonderful bit of cake was. So maybe, maybe not, but I'll continue to sit at the far end of the table for breakfast. That's alright.

SPEAKER_02:

But yeah, electric shavers. So when I when so I hate, I hate I'm using the word hate here about shaving. It's time consuming, it's boring, it's messy. If I leave a single hair in the bathroom, Drew comes down on me with the with the power of the almighty, and it's like bank. Yeah, that black room is an absolute state. Um she doesn't do that really, she's lovely. Um so I I hate it, but when I do do it, I I use an electric razor, and it's essentially because I don't like a clean shape because I look like a 12-year-old when I'm that shit. I use essentially like hair clippers with a guard on, and I've got like a very specific length that I shave to, and that sets me back to not zero, but back to like baseline, and then I start growing it out again for like three weeks or whatever.

SPEAKER_05:

Grade one.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not not even that short, no. Oh, okay. I think the one I use is um seven, grade seven. Wow. But it's like a beard trimmer, so it's a different grade from hair. Um so I just do that so it gets electric shaver. The here's a pain point for you. The head on it is really because it's a beard trimmer for your face, not a hair trimmer for your head. The head on it's really thin. Whereas if you buy a head trimmer for your head, it's at least twice the size and you cover more surface area, but you can't do your tash. That's the only problem.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it's oh yeah. Because um the m my principal thought around you know, beard sort of going clean shape is I don't have much of a preference for other people. I certainly do for myself, as I think everyone knows. Um but there's one caveat and it and it's simply that it must be tidy. I think if someone has facial hair and they can't be bothered to groom it, then they don't they shouldn't have it on their face. At least you can hide your hair under a hash.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm gonna have a shave now.

SPEAKER_04:

I think um yeah. Of course, I know it's a pain in the bum, but um it just looks it I think the difference between having a very tightly well-groomed uh beard is uh versus something that even if you're just running a comb through it, uh it just makes the world of difference.

SPEAKER_02:

Um just just for the record, um I've just got uh a peer into Mark's real opinion, maybe based on that. I think you're both tantamount to swamp creatures.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm gonna I'm gonna one one of the positive things about the coronavirus is face masks. I know face masks, and then you don't have to, you know, there's less emphasis on having that tidy beard, yeah, yeah, that tidy shave. That again, and and even cleaning your teeth, I'd suggest.

SPEAKER_02:

Me and Drew went out to the ivy last night, and I was like I was I was just feeling really shit, like nothing, none of my clothes look nice. I'm not born any in the ages, and I was like, I don't I don't I don't feel like going out in public. It was one of these rare moments where I'm like, eh, I feel horrible. And then I remembered that as I was walking through the restaurant, I'd have to wear a face mask, and I immediately felt better about going out.

SPEAKER_04:

You were at the Ivy, the one opposite from me, basically.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

You could have sent me a text and and we could have gone for a drink.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh we were with Drew's mother.

SPEAKER_04:

I I mean, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02:

If I respect me, that's fine. She doesn't want she doesn't like uh people who shave, so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. Oh yeah. She'd be worried about uh the contamination of your mustache wax.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh expedition strength. It does get everywhere, you know.

SPEAKER_04:

You don't wash your hands immediately after application, it's just everything in Mark's house is waterproof now. Yeah, it is. Yeah, so it's flood insurance basically. Yeah. The the one deviation I made facial hair-wise was I used to have uh my mustache coming straight up to the this is gonna be quite difficult, difficult to imagine, but bear with me. Uh my mustache would come straight up over the entirety of my filtrum and and the upper my my my upper lip. But to kind of uh distinguish myself and to make me look a little bit more well what I felt and continue to feel a bit more refined, was I wanted to put a little bit of space between my nostrils and the and the start of my mustache. Um but I wasn't able to get a razor blade in there without basically slicing off my top lip. So what I had to do as an alternative was a pair of tweezers.

SPEAKER_07:

Oh this is horrific already.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'll at least suffer prolonged torture quite easily now, because that's exactly what it was. I had to grab each hair and properly pull it out. Um, more than once or twice I do that, and of course, my my eyes streaming the entire time, um, and once or twice there would just be this little wink of blood just talking through it.

SPEAKER_02:

And you surprise that your skin sore after you shoot it.

SPEAKER_04:

No, I only had to do this um for let's say a couple of weeks before I'd built up the distance I needed to get a razor blade in there. But at the time I didn't realise that um the razor blade I was using, which is a uh a Gillette usually 3000 max power man thing. Whatever the fuck it called, it has a um a trimming blade on the back of it. Yeah. So I could have I could have just turned it round and very gently pulled at my uh you know, tucked at those hairs and got rid of them. Uh but instead I opted for the physical torment of of the tweet.

SPEAKER_02:

So just a reminder, Mark is a UX designer, everyone, and he can be contacted on Subcliffe Market I was the user of that though, not the UX designer.

SPEAKER_04:

So it's not my fault I don't know.

SPEAKER_05:

It was what do you do for fun? Do you waterboard yourself?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That's it. Well, I try I try to, but it all slicks off because I've had the wax off. Waterplace first.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing. So what would what's your um what's your answer, Paul?

SPEAKER_05:

Oh god, what my answer be? I'd I'd like to see um in a similar way you can get tattooed eyebrows and things, you know, just um a tattooed beard.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. That definitely exists.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, well, not a tattooed beard, but could I take some sort of like drugs and just like just not have a beard if I wanted to?

SPEAKER_04:

Like electricity, but none of them stick for very long, I believe.

SPEAKER_05:

Maybe a mask is my solution. That'd that solve quite a few of my UX or your space issues.

SPEAKER_04:

The UX of shaving, just to put this into context, the UX of shaving is my very extreme opinions, followed by Paul and Nick, who just think, don't bother. That feels like a balanced review of this problem. I feel like it solves it.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, I mean the the UX of shaving is poor, that's why I don't shave.

SPEAKER_05:

It's the it's it's a horrible experience.

SPEAKER_04:

It's an entire process though, isn't it? You have to prepare your skin and you have to then obviously do the deed, which in and of itself can be quite difficult, and then you have to care for your skin afterwards. And there are lots of processes in cosmetics that are precisely like that because well they're quite if you think about it, the generally speaking, they're quite unnatural processes, aren't they? You wash your face, you still have to do it. Yeah, well, so this you put the oils back in, you strip the hair of oil, you put the oils back in, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_05:

Um I'm just gonna blame society. Right. Oh, it's been absolute pleasure. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening to Faster Horses, and we'll see you again in a couple of weeks. Thanks very much, and see you soon. Don't forget to check us out on Twitter at FasterHorses UX.

Head Shot

Paul Wilshaw

Host