Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology

Wheeler & Stealer (What is Mobile First?)

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In this episode we discuss what Mobile First means and how it is viewed at various levels, in various industries, as well as a few interesting conversational detours and of course, the madness that is, UX Tombola.

Do you think mobile first is always the right approach? Do you think it's a separate skillset? Let us know on Twitter @FasterHorsesUX

Music by James Medd


Patreon Producers for this episode:

Rob Singleton



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All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses, a podcast about UX, UXR, UI design, products and technology (sometimes!)

🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler

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The show is hosted by:
Paul Wilshaw
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilshaw/
and
Mark Sutcliffe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sutcliffemark/

If you want to suggest an idea, or join us on the show, send us a message 👆.

SPEAKER_06:

If you go off an extra large microfiber class, it doubles off as a sleeping back.

SPEAKER_09:

Hello and welcome to Faster Horses. I'm Paul Wilshell at Paul Wilshell on Twitter, and these are my co-hosts, Mark Sutcliffe, which is Marks out of ten.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_09:

And Nick Tomlinson at MT Illustrators.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello.

SPEAKER_09:

This is series three, series three. But if you haven't heard of series one or two, uh you can check those out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You can find us in loads of places. Now you can get this extended version of the same episodes early by signing up to our Faster Horses Patreon, as well as one extra Patreon exclusive episode a month, along with other benefits to turn all the signs. Don't forget to like and subscribe, it really does help the show, and also follow our official Twitter page at FasterHorses UX for regular updates, find show topics, and interesting articles and random musings for the team. Also, if you want to give us feedback, send us some feedback. Now, without further ado, let's go on to the show.

SPEAKER_07:

Alright, so smile friend.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you know what that song's about? Are you recording, Paul? I am recording, tell us. Alright, cool. Do you know what that song's about? Let's get the tumbler. This is gold. Um yeah, so apparently everyone thinks it's about something dead profound, but what it is is um Paul Simon. Is Paul Simon, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05:

I think so, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

From Simon and Simon Garth. Yeah. So when he when he was writing or thinking about writing a song, he'd go into his bathroom and he'd turn all the lights out in the bathroom and just stand there until he thought of an idea or a lyric or a melody or something. So that song is about people operate. Yeah. He'd just go stand in a tiny black box until until it's ideas. Yeah, which I feel like is how Stephen King comes up with most of his ideas as well. At least the character, the characters in his books. Um yeah, that's so that's what it's about. So it's about like going into the uh bathroom, turning the lights off, and being like, hello darkness, my old friend. I'm here to talk to you again. I need an idea. Which now when you say it out loud like that sounds like bartering with the devil, really, doesn't it? It does really.

SPEAKER_06:

Maybe that's what he was so it is profound, profoundly evil.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, profoundly weird.

SPEAKER_09:

I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_06:

Is it I feel like most popular artists these days, instead of doing something like that, what they do is they get a dartboard and just fill it with nobody and then just fling shit at it. Whatever whatever the shit lands on, that's what they make the song about.

SPEAKER_09:

I think it's the record labels they use AI. Um predict what uh people are wanting.

SPEAKER_03:

I was um have you heard some of the AI songs? So like they've used AI to make songs by dead people like Kirk Cobain and stuff like that, and Amy Winehouse. Yeah. They're like the they're like the worryingly convincing.

SPEAKER_06:

Right, not just like sinisterly butchered. Um I was listening to I was listening to um an art an artificial intelligence virtual artist, as it's called on YouTube. Yeah, uh it's it's uh I I saw a TED talk about it. It was she's uh I say she, she's an it, she's an algorithm. But she um um we're in love, you know. She tells me love letters and everything, uh love songs, um but yeah, they just generate a new song according to a random theme uh once every couple of weeks and slap it on YouTube. Uh so if you're interested, it's surprisingly good, but a lot of it's pretty generic stuff like epic music. And I don't know if you've listened to a lot of epic music, but after about 30 minutes it all starts starts to sound the same. Yep, like not very epic at all, yeah. Like is it is it um John Williams? Apparently, if you try to sing the theme to Indiana Jones, then to Superman, then to Star Wars main theme, typical people can't tell the difference, can't can't navigate clearly between the three of them.

SPEAKER_03:

No, it if someone when I if someone says like sing um the Superman theme tune or sing the Star Wars theme tune to me, so it's a 50-50 chance that I'm gonna get it like what either one like mixed up.

SPEAKER_06:

I just belt out a good tenor for Jurassic Park.

SPEAKER_09:

Oh, yeah, that's similar as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06:

Um very um I can't think of the word, uses a lot of the same themes.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. But I mean he is an absolute genius though. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah. For for one song just played different differently each each time.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. It plays it plays all the same notes, but it's it just plays them in different orders. In different orders, yeah. Sounds like that. But then again, you can say that about all musicians. That's true, yeah. That was that was essentially the joke I was making, man. Oh, sorry. Um, yeah. So what's the topic today, Paul? Have you volunteered a topic?

SPEAKER_09:

Have I volunteered a topic? Um the topic today is mobile first. It's a term that a lot of people use um and go, oh yeah, mobile first was super cool. Yeah, so this is um this is a phrase that gets banded around a lot. Um, and it's quite interesting because um a lot of people say, Oh yeah, mobile first, we should be mobile first, we should make our uh and basically mobile first is designing stuff or designing websites that fit onto a mobile device and designing that first before you do anything else. That's mobile first in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_06:

So are we talking primarily web stuff or are we talking applications as well? Applications as well.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think by almost by definition, apps now are mobile first, aren't they?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, uh you'd I don't know because you've got web apps now. Yeah, uh there are certain web apps that only work because of because of complex systems, which is another podcast you can listen to, um, or they're more they're more complex than than mobile insinuates, shall we say mobile usage lends itself to, such as Figma. Um we did a podcast on that as well. Um I'm getting old of it in today.

SPEAKER_08:

Totally all.

SPEAKER_06:

Um and so I'd go as far to say is mobile first is well and good, but it shouldn't be the hill upon which you die, because designing something for mobile first indicates kind of pre pre-indicates a usage and how it's going to be used. So you can't just class it on everything. Yeah, you can't just say across the board mobile first is what's happening in the future, or the future of UX or the future of design, because there are I think as we move forward, there are certain applications which sure are best on mobile, um, such as managing your smart devices or ordering your food, stuff like that. But then if you've got more um specialized things such as design uh software or or even um word processors and stuff like that, tends to be better. I say tends to be, that's my opinion, um, on desktop.

SPEAKER_09:

I'm gonna disagree with you here, Martin. Yeah, yeah, because I think everything should be uh at least some version mobile esque. Um, and I think you know, like Photoshop, it bugs me that I can't use Photoshop, although I don't really use Photoshop anymore. Um, on my mobile verse, on my mobile, and I have to kind of like get my laptop out, plug it in if it's got no battery, uh boot it up, get the latest update, and it's a real pain in the arse. Um and let's face it, mobiles now are pretty fast. Um and the what there was um was it Lenovo or someone like about 10 years ago, they had this concept you'd bring your own phone into work, plug it into a dock, and then you could use all the apps and all the programs straight from your mobile in a more desktop setting. So I'd say, and I think this is where Adobe have lost out a little bit, because if Photoshop was available on mobile like five, six years ago, there'd be less transition over to some new world. And I think if you make it for mobile, if you make it well, um then you can do you can do pretty much anything on mobile.

SPEAKER_06:

No, no, I I I know what you mean. I think yeah, the distinction I was making was that if you have um there are certain tasks that whilst you can have a version that works on mobile, I think the Photoshop example was really good. Um ultimately I think Photoshop in its current state relies because of its complexity, relies on certain things you only get with a keyboard and mouse, peripherals and stuff like that. Um so I think the version that you get on on your phone would have to necessarily be a stripped back version or a bridge, but that doesn't mean it's not fully integrated. Um if you do have a you could have a docking system, as it were, where you've got so much functionality to I don't know, pre pre um pre-play with uh raw footage or raw raw photos, for example, and then you put your phone in the the dock or you go on to create a cloud on your PC and it's automatically there for you to use. I think something like that would be great. Could you call that a mobile first solution though, or is it just better integration with devices?

SPEAKER_09:

Well, that's this is where the the term this is where it's key mobile first, because I think this is the problem that a lot of apps have had is because you've got a transition from a desktop, you know, an old legacy software, onto a different device. And people have got used to using keyboards and mice and uh you know shortcut keys and things like that. So there is uh it's much harder for that transgression from a desktop then to a mobile device. And I think this is where can like you know a lot of people say mobile first, because then if you design for mobile first, everything works on the desktop, even maybe on heat uh on the desktop, so you can have kind of like you know, you then you have all your shortcut keys, then you have your like your mouse interaction, but essentially you know, it shouldn't really matter what device you're on or what device you're using.

SPEAKER_03:

When you're talking about like Photoshop as mobile first, does does that imply that like the preferred method that you would then interact with Photoshop would be mobile above all else? Or are you just using it as like a starting place that you then build from as like the initial version?

SPEAKER_09:

Well, if you think about kind of how we take photos now, you know, kind of when Photoshop first came out, it was all you know 35mm film. Then we went on to digital film, you had to put an SD card in, stuff like that. But as phones have developed, you know, the the quality of photos is so much better. It's all on your device or all in the cloud and it's all accessible there. So why wouldn't you want to edit uh photographs using the device you took it on?

SPEAKER_03:

So, like even Photoshop these days isn't the primary even Adobe software to edit photographs on now, though, is it?

SPEAKER_09:

Uh no, not really, not really. But if you wanted to do, say, like uh something creative or quick mock-up or something in a meeting, you just couldn't do it.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, so my issue with that is I I can't even conceive of wanting to use Photoshop on on a mobile, let alone actually like going through with it and and figuring out that whole like UI and stuff, how that would even work. But isn't that what iPads are for? You can get Photoshop in Illustrator and procreate and stuff on an iPad now, which is like that stepping stone between the two platforms, isn't it? It's it's in terms of like scaling and screen arrangement and stuff, it's all laid out like a desktop, but it's still all primarily like touch functionality. Um obviously Apple Pencil comes in when you when you're dealing with illustration and stuff like that, but are we not beyond the point now in that particular case where we're beyond thinking about mobile first or where it's even like a should be regarded as a different thing, a different discipline? I think when um when I kind of brought up this, my my kind of interest lied around like a lot of people talk about developing for mobile, like it's a separate subject, like it's a separate set of skills than normal desktop. Well, I say normal. I say normal, I say normal because we develop for desktop primarily in day-to-day jobs. Um and it it's almost treated as if like it's a completely different skill set, whereas obviously there are different things that you need to think about and different ways, slightly different ways that people will interact, but it all comes back to like the central tenets of just what UX is.

SPEAKER_09:

Oh, yeah, 100%. And there's there's no difference, there's no different skills there whatsoever. I think you know, the only difference is you know, kind of your experience with it, but your experience is as good as using apps that are nice to use, or you know, using different devices and you know, failing fast, uh, those kind of things. So it's no different designing, and and you know, and code should be no different as well. You shouldn't have um loads of different repos of code and kind of like, oh, this code has to work on here, this code has to work on there, you know. There's there's obviously, you know, you kind of like if you're doing a native app, you know, the Swift, or if you're using uh Android Java, uh and then kind of like you know, there's there's other things like uh React, or I've been teaching myself um O, uh, which is a brand new programming language uh developed by my friend. Uh I'll give them a plug. I'll give them a plug. Uh but it's basically then you can plug. I know, but you can target uh the output you want. So you write the code once and then you compile it into whatever format you want, and then it comes out as a native Swift Java uh Node.js or whatever. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03:

Is that like is that like a perfect translation or is it a bit janky?

SPEAKER_09:

It's no, it's perfect translation. It's yeah. Oh a u. Just a u. Oh. A U. R.

SPEAKER_08:

But it's pronounced Ferris Fuelers they are.

SPEAKER_03:

I've just got Ferris Fueler in my head now.

SPEAKER_09:

But yeah, but that but that that's that's kind of where I see code going, and code more accessible as well for people to use, you know. Uh long uh has code been behind the iron curtain? Uh-huh. And people kind of like, oh, you know, that's that's we can't do that in code, which I think is always a real cop out when people say that and can't, oh well, this is not the way the software works. And you're like, well, yeah, do users care what the software is?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, well, that's it.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, they don't, they don't care, kind of like, you know, you've decided to use.NET. They don't care about that. That's like that's that's your tough shit. Uh so you know, and like nobody goes to ASOS and goes like, oh, wait a minute, let me check. Uh oh, I know I can't buy those pair of shorts, I really wanted to, because it was developed in a different language.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I can't I can't buy anything off this website because I've got an Android for it. Yeah, it was developed for uh like an Apple Apple device.

SPEAKER_09:

Or Windows device, it's still on my old Windows device, I've gonna adjust it off on it. Uh crazy. Um, but yeah, so yeah, go on, Mark.

SPEAKER_06:

I was just gonna say I've got a couple of things like that have come to mind here. I really like what um Nick was saying, you know, about is it does mobile first mean mobile primarily mobile or initially mobile? I think that's that's a really interesting distinction because I think what what it is is if if you have something that is initially mobile, for example, and you do go down that road road, then is it that you're um doing an equal equal integration thing? Are we thinking about a mobile solution or are we just thinking a mobile uh uh sorry, or are we just thinking of a solution that's consistent apart across all its touch points?

SPEAKER_03:

Good point. I think one of I think one of the things about mobile first that I'm conscious of is it feels like an e-commerce term. Yeah, yeah. And it feels like it's weighted towards e-commerce and and sales. And I think the first time I uh encountered it was around the time where it appeared people were moving from desktop to primarily like mobile and and tablet and stuff, and I think even really back then people classed tablet um as almost as mobile back then as well. I think they still do, a lot of people still do. I mean, I I I often forget, I've got like the um the iPad Pro, like 12 and a half inch, and I often forget that that is like the outlier, that's an absolutely massive thing, in it. Most tablets that people have, it's like a Kindle or a uh Amazon, what are they called? Fire or whatever they're doing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Like actually quite small devices, compared to the size that a lot of phones are now. Because I think one of the things that's interesting is I'd say that very often I'll be working on my phone buying stuff, for example, and I'm quite if I'm buying clothes, as you can imagine, I'm very specific and I'm comparing probably about between four and sixty-four items at any given time.

SPEAKER_07:

Wow.

SPEAKER_06:

Um and I think I run out of screen real estate, I'm not gonna lie, or at least the navigation that's currently built into something like mobile means that I'm not able to flick quickly, as I might be able to do with um either um just tabs on a on a on a browser or or something like a mouse. So yeah, I think it's it's interesting. Does does the hardware in terms of I'm I mean I'm I'm saying the word peripherals again but I guess that's what it is. There's a hardware in terms of peripherals does that make a big difference on like the use case for for mobile first?

SPEAKER_09:

I I think it I think there's a quite a few factors to consider. I I'd suggest that the website you're using was a desktop site first and they've just made it mobile friendly along the way and I think that's where a lot of people kind of go like oh wait a minute our desktop site we've got to think about mobile let's do mobile first but and then it's just reformatting the same old shit um and expecting people to use tabs and keyboard shortcuts and comparing things I'm the same as you can you know if you you want to compare a couple of things together it's really hard to do because it's come from kind of like uh you know the browsers Safari uh Chrome and Firefox that you know have had all those tabs and we can you know you can press command tied and things like that just to go between them.

SPEAKER_03:

And so that's you've just made me think of one really like good question that I just asked myself is like so if we're still talking about e-commerce and stuff like the what will have happened originally is most of these particularly older companies and stuff will have had a website as soon as they became like the thing to do. And then they will have made that website work on mobile um slightly better. But then what companies kind of went on to do is create an app for themselves you know like like ASOS like size like Amazon's got one obviously and I always find it really interesting when viewing their website on your mobile is a completely different experience to using the app for the same site? Yes. Why is that what like is there a technical reason is that does that go back again to like code and the way that they've executed it why can't you make if you've made an app that's really good and a really good experience why can't you make your website just behave in exactly the same way that the app does I think it's all down to legacy.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah I was gonna say it's almost as if they they focus so much on an app which they view as an enclosed ecosystem almost so that when it comes to actually reconsidering the the um the website the desktop website or indeed the website responsive on mobile as well the it's a different team managing it it's a different it's it's so much older the cords not as new stuff like that so you encounter these issues that mean that it just gets left to the wayside it's it's not an equal consideration for a a whole solution it's just different disparate solutions not brought together.

SPEAKER_03:

That's quite interesting in it like I bet you could really spend some time unpacking that like what would they see do you think as the the number one method then do you reckon they still think about the website being the number one I reckon they respond to whatever has the biggest ROI.

SPEAKER_06:

I reckon it comes down to numbers uh and I mean financial numbers which might not be the biggest indicator I wouldn't take that as the biggest indicator of success in this certainly not for with any longevity in mind.

SPEAKER_09:

But it doesn't feature proof yeah I think I was I was reading a couple of weeks ago that um most of ASOS's revenue about 90% comes from mobile devices. Yeah um so I get this is probably why again the website doesn't look anything like the mobile app because uh you know their board has put the resources the RD into the mobile app and into mobile over the desktop website and why develop something that you know less than 10% of your customers are using.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah well this is what I was kind of alluding to when I asked that is that my experience isn't necessarily like in the brief experience of adding e-commerce wouldn't be like it's all kind of based on like the opinion of the the guys at the top who aren't necessarily as close to the the reality of what's actually happening as they probably should be to make those decisions. And I think they're probably just like oh well the website's been there for ages so obviously that's the what we're gonna focus on. Whereas I think for people who probably shop on things like ASOS and stuff they probably would defer to the app wouldn't they that kind of uh what I'm assuming the demographic is for ASOS without doing any research or looking into it like I imagine they're a fairly specific age bracket.

SPEAKER_09:

Anyone in this room is the key demographic for ASOS well I don't know nowadays I don't know because I think they've tried to um you know they've they're trying to go past the millennials aren't they they brought out Debonums and you know and and a lot of their stuff now they're reaching yeah that older demographic but I think though this this is where kind of like Monzo and Revolute have had massive success over some of the kind you know the big five banks. Can you even access them on a desktop? No I don't think so you may be able to kind of like some kind of like um limited way but yeah they they they are definitively mobile first.

SPEAKER_06:

No that's an interesting one because at this point I'd argue that being mobile exclusive can be not just as problematic but it can have problems. So for example um what was it uh there was there was an application like a chat chat app I was trying to use and I was trying to chat to someone whilst I was working which I shouldn't have been doing but never mind sorry Rob this was years ago I promise I since sussed out better solutions but I was in the situation where you mean become way more professional market oh yeah yeah exactly that's what I mean um um so I um yeah I went and I found myself because um I wasn't able to um use the app on my online or any kind of simulacrum of the app online any kind of variant um I was having to pick up my phone unlock my phone open the app type the message put my phone down get back into work I was context shifting as well because of that of the latency between picking up my phone and opening the app whereas if for any you know an example would be using WhatsApp you can use WhatsApp on your phone or on your um desktop and you've I found that I can have it open on my um desktop no problem. The moment I'm expected to go solely to my phone for it then um there's a complete break in my workflow uh when I'm trying to focus on something on my computer. Yeah yeah definitely and and whilst for messaging it's easy to say well don't use it whilst you're working um if you're trying to do your finances um and I use a Google Sheet for mine um I and I prefer to do that on my laptop because uh there's more data at once it's a larger screen back to peripherals um and then I was going to refer to Monzo well I have to have my phone open all of a sudden I have to use both devices at once to have my preferred way of interaction um and it just feels cumbersome yeah so yeah there's go on Nick it's a I was just gonna say is it a little bit of um uh not over stimulation but uh over like cognitive overload as well just dealing with two devices at the same time it's just a little bit I think so yeah yeah because you you do have to shift context um but at the same time I think that the emphasis I'm trying to make here is that having something mobile exclusive I find limiting because I don't have the choice whereas if something's mobile first such as a banking app and I have the option to use that there are certain contexts where where that's really useful.

SPEAKER_09:

But if it's mobile exclusive than iPhone that there are just as many contacts where not having it available in the same spaces where my focus primarily is um is is destructive to my workflow shall we say right I get what you mean yeah yeah hey there Paul hey yeah I know my uh dog dog was barking in the background someone's uh walking past or something yeah someone's phone ping as well earlier I know at least was that you as well Paul no it wasn't it wasn't me some of the messing with two unprofessional individuals instead of any anyone who would send me a text message is on this call wouldn't I true enough yeah yeah it might be my parents again shut shut up yeah I think that that that's really an interesting point because that mobile exclusive thing um is is a tricky problem to solve because the the you know not only do you have to then keep up with operating systems on a myriad of different platforms uh and I remember you know uh working in mobile banking we had uh uh I think it was like plus or minus two so and it we we'd go back to and support uh two operating systems below the current one uh which is fine but then when you think about some of your demographic if you think you know banking has to be accessible to every single person not everybody can afford the latest phone that works on the latest operating system or even an operating system that's two years out of date because like I think is it the iPhone 7 now is uh can't take the latest iOS 14 update uh or 15 updates feels like an interesting little are you saying it can't or that it's not being it as in it it doesn't straight up have the power or that Apple simply aren't servers yeah yeah I think it's older products it's a it's a mix isn't it because uh you know I and good and Google are doing this with the Android operating system now and you know you can only go to a certain version of the Android operating system because there's so much in it that you need that processing power you need that um ingrained operating system to do it and then you know if you can't support those older devices you are you know consciously excluding a massive segment of demographics so that's a really tricky one and this is why um you know when you silo you know teams development into one thing then you're not gonna get a consistent experience you're not gonna get you know a consistent workflow uh which we've talked about we're not gonna get a consistent uh you know kind of look and feel even across all those things yeah that's a really good point because I I think the consistency in any business is like one of the number one things that you should focus on especially in terms of like delivering good UX the UX of like your business should and the consistency of it across every touch point should be like indistinguishable as much as possible shouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

And and I can't I can't think of very many companies that do that very well.

SPEAKER_06:

No well um we have there's trouble at work in terms of getting bandwidth to uh retroactively make things consistent with more recent innovations um and that that that can be really it can really be quite jarring really can't it because you've made an improvement across the board uh and it could be something such as making something more mobile or or or even better more accessible um and unfortunately exists in one tiny isolated part of the software and it in itself can become an inconsistency. And then you get that that that you know how do you change especially if you're dealing with a complex system how do you change from one consistency to an improved consistency globally you know that you know for some systems that could take years to do it can it can I think that's where a good robust robust design system comes into it doesn't it um another plug for another previous there are previous episodes inside the sausage factory yeah inside the sausage factory a UX with faster horses podcast about design systems listen on your preferred streaming service today featuring a guest uh oh Greg across that guy one very particular sausage I've seen into the sausage factory I've seen how the sausage gets made I'm not I'm not a a pervert I promise at least that's what happens when you're gonna be lit up for 20 years that's it that's it that's my that's my story and I'm sticking to it so the one thing I wanted to talk about actually um about mobile first I was just gonna say the word accessibility and kind of throw it out there so what do what kind of implications does having a mobile first approach or or even a mobile exclusive approach what does that mean for accessibility? That's a very good question isn't it?

SPEAKER_09:

It is I can answer this um having won some awards in mobile accessibility Paul Wilshot at Paul Wilshot on Twitter that's me done for the day I'll see you later um generally um so when um iPhones and Android phones had to catch up a little bit but iPhones were loads and loads better at accessibility over desktops uh for for a period of time I'm not sure that's still true but um the the accessibility you have on uh your mobile device is loads better because you have the the readout uh fe function only accessibility you have the haptic feedback which you don't get with a keyboard or a mouse um and you also have um there's loads of apps as well isn't there there's um there's there's a really good one that that's won quite a few awards called um what's it called now uh see for me or something along those lines where you can get people if you're uh partially sighted or have no vision you can get people to uh view the world for you and describe it for you yes yes um you know and help you along those and you know there's apps as well that act as uh hearing aids so what you can do you can put your phone over by somebody and then it'll transmit that to your hearing aid and you can hear it like perfectly so there's things like that. So mobile phones are pretty amazing for you know accessibility out of the box. Where they don't work is when they've been coded like your desktop site and you copied the UX over yeah um and you have to invent loads of accessibility rules that that go on top of that that then break everything.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah they're just hacks more than actual accessibility solutions.

SPEAKER_09:

Definitely so you know mobile first you know as long as you're kind of like playing into the accessibility of the OS which is generally really good and you know add in some really good things on there then you know out of the box it's really simple and easy to do it's where you get that kind of like ah you know where you want to be a twat uh and and put um you know and do things that you'd never ever do uh unless you could see it or unless you could kind of like really interact with it or press something really tiny on it. You know and I think there was there was especially when mobiles first came out there was the misconception that you had to cram everything that was above the fold on your desktop app onto the entire screen and you know the content.

SPEAKER_06:

So you had these tiny images where you had to pinch and zoom and uh you know the tiny touch points which we all know are are generally rubbish everywhere let alone on mobile and you know CPU experience with uh with an emoji selector on WeChat was on my desktop and it had to you could because I'm used to just swiping left and right to choose a different emoji there's you can't do that on PC and there's tiniest little pips which are I think probably half a degree darker than the background they're on. Oh my god I I didn't notice them for I thought oh this selection of emojis is considerably smaller than on the my phone but yeah tiny little apps yeah you get you get that weird like ghost tension in your hand where you're trying to get so close.

SPEAKER_09:

I guess yeah definitely and then also you know you've got to consider so well on mobile apps you've got less accuracy than kind of like you're moving your mouse around you know and like if you consider the mouse pointer it's a very sharp end that point but when you you know your fingers aren't sharp and pointy stabbing at your screen with your pudgy sausage definitely you know and then if you if you're walking around and trying to you know one-handed you've got a shopping basket in one hand trying to do things with another hand and they you know it's um even on my massive phone trying to do something on the top left it says check out now um or let's face it if you don't have all the fingers on your hands or hands on all right yeah absolutely you know and the motion and things like that that people you know kind of like forget all those things are kind of like really could be detrimental to accessibility.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah this is it I feel like I feel like the the answer is almost in the question as it were um mobile first really to get the most out Of it, especially from an accessibility perspective, means approaching mobile first. Before you approach uh have any other solutions, or indeed, if you're thinking of a mobile solution, then you do have to go back to the drawing board because you've got so many more resources, you've got uh solutions to so many more accessibility problems, but potentially more accessibility problems because you've got situations that could change and stuff like that, you've got a myriad of different uses there. Um so you really do have to take a step back. But I I think that's a good thing because if you are able to take a step back, you're probably going to find a solution that wasn't even feasible on the desktop in the first place.

SPEAKER_09:

And also I think you know, if you consider all those problems as well that you get with mobile, if you can solve all those then you know, you're more likely to give your desktop application or uh website, you know, a better love and care because you know we use you know, when when the world gets back to normal, you know, we use our uh laptops on the train or in small tight confined spaces, or you know, not everybody's working on a desk or has the luxury to work on a desk, you know. Some people have been working throughout the pandemic on a bed or you know, on on the sofa or things like that.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, so that was me until well, it still is me. I'm at my dining room table most of the time.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and it's those now, you know, where we're more digital nomadic, yeah, we need to consider a lot more things than you know, or you can do you've got a tiny pointer, you can click on that, or you know, you can zoom into it and things like that. But you know, we should consider all those things for all devices, let alone just mobile.

SPEAKER_03:

It's a bit like the point that I raised on the um complicated systems episode, which you can go back and listen to. Um I'm loving all these points. Yeah, we're getting we're getting really professional at this now. But when I was talking about the whole turtle shell dragon ball thing, where if you do if you if you get thrown in at the deep end and you do the difficult job for a long time, i.e., if you div if you've got lots of problems that you have to solve to create good inter Right, you sacked whoever that was. Yeah, that was stuff. That was Paul. That was Paul's Ms. saying You're still doing that fucking podcast, Sam. But as I said, yeah, so if you if you solve all these problems, a real job. Sorry, go on. If you solve all these problems on mobile, when it comes time to do it on desktop, the whole process should be better and UI should be better because you've developed it for something that's small and difficult to interact with. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_09:

And then you get that consistency upwards as well. Yeah, absolutely rather than having like a hundred different ways to interact with the same thing.

SPEAKER_06:

But I really liked the I really like the phrase you you used um just now, uh Paul, when you said being a digital nomad.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I think I think that's a really because that that's probably I started this conversation with um with the main kind of situation in mind, the comparative situation of being very focused sat at a desk.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Because that's where my desktop lives. So, you know, mobile first versus desktop first. I was I was using that frame of mind as my desktop. When really that isn't necessarily the situation we're in anymore. No, because even our desktops are moving around with us. Um, and of course, I'm probably not going to use my desktop computer or my laptop whilst I'm shopping. Um Stranger things have definitely happened, you know, and sometimes I need to get up an elaborate spreadsheet for my water watermelon inventory.

SPEAKER_09:

I can just imagine Chris pushing you around in a shopping trolley while you're on your top in another fucking meeting.

SPEAKER_06:

Um trolley's um you've got the kids. You've got kids trolleys. Um oh no, you your yours is a more realistic suggestion than you know you've got the kids seats and trolley. Well, make those adult size. Oh god, I've thought this for a long time. I've done this for a long time so that your partner um can push you around uh doing the shopping whilst you're on your laptop in a meeting.

SPEAKER_03:

I can imagine bringing that up with Drew. You both know Drew. Whilst we're out at the supermarket today, do you mind pushing me around like a giant toddler whilst you do the shopping and I do some work on my laptop? What again?

SPEAKER_09:

Last time would be the last time. If the seat was at the front though, you could just like swipe across and just grab everything in the jump. Sweep things in. Done in five minutes. Whether you needed it or not. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

We've accidentally slipped into a UX top baller there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09:

Definitely. But you know what though? Um for you know um supermarkets are I find them alienating for a huge number of people. Unless you're able-bodied and um, you know, you've you've got all your senses around you, they're horrible places. You know, there's no there's no resting points, you know. If you if you struggle to walk or things like that, there's no seats in a supermarket where you can take a break.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, I know I I know it's hardly a disability, but like as a particularly short person, it's quite it's it's difficult to get like the number of times I've been in the supermarket, and like an a little old lady has asked me to get her something down from the top shelf. No, I can't. I'm in the same boat as you love. I'm not better off than you are. You're looking down at me now. Yeah, like it's just simple, simple stuff like that.

SPEAKER_09:

It is, it is, yeah. You know, kind of like they and our supermarkets are hellhole and they they you know they sell well, they sell shelves to the highest bidder.

SPEAKER_06:

They do. Um but to bring it right back round Saintsworth by me has actually now got over the pandemic, they got an app. Oh yes. They created it. I didn't actually use it because I didn't. I've used it. Is it any good? Is it is it a scanning you can use it to scan your goods and pay for your goods.

SPEAKER_09:

It's good if you want to drain half of your battery around Saints was right. Because you have to you have to have your camera on and there's loads of there's loads of factors in it. It is good. I'd rather use the um provided hand scanners.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I'm gonna say they've already got a thing for that, haven't they? But don't you need to have um uh Sainsbury's membership or something to use those?

SPEAKER_09:

I think a neck yeah, you need a nectar card. Regulars like me and my mark, uh, you know, we're yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Um you've also spotted me at Sainsbury's Paul. Yeah, you've definitely not even registered your existence. I just didn't even see you. It's but you didn't you also didn't say come and poke my shoulder and say, hello, friend. So it's your fault as well.

SPEAKER_09:

This also happened at the museum as well, didn't it? Um I'm just I'm just the nobody to you out and about, that's what it is. Most people are pubbed, it's not personal because you don't make it a packet. I only I only cry for 10 minutes every night. Oh well.

SPEAKER_06:

Um it's at least um like 20 minutes less than I cry.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_06:

So yeah, I tried I tried to bring it back down to mobile first, then instead of supermarkets, but I didn't I didn't get very far.

SPEAKER_09:

It's a good point. It's a good point. It's a good point.

SPEAKER_03:

I think so I so to get an answer to my earlier sort of question question that I posed then. Yeah, do you do you two see it as like a different skill set developing for mobile, or is it still the same UX?

SPEAKER_06:

Paul, do you want to go first or shall I?

SPEAKER_09:

Uh you go first, Mark.

SPEAKER_06:

I think it is a newer skill set, and I think it's it's it's an elaboration, but it's like an upgrade on on an older way of doing things. I think mobile first is an approach that that you can take um that is indicative of a more holistic approach in general. So I think if you take a mobile first approach, then naturally your UX considerations are going to be broader and they're gonna be more inclusive and more holistic overall. Um if you take it as opposed to just catering towards a specific device or or even just a desktop.

SPEAKER_03:

But you you don't necessarily think that as some developing or uh designing for desktop puts you at a disadvantage if someone was to chuck a mobile solution at you and say design for that.

SPEAKER_06:

Um I'd say you you'll have to do a bit of adjusting, but I it's one of those I I've said this to a couple of people recently. Not everyone's a UX designer, uh, but everyone's a user. Um and almost everyone's a user of a mobile. So I'd say if you are an experienced UX designer full stop, then um when it comes to using a mobile phone, you'll already have a feel and instinct for the things that are different. And if you've got a good bit of UX principle knowledge behind you, it'll just be a different perspective as opposed to a complete shift in skill set altogether.

SPEAKER_03:

Because I would argue if you're doing your due diligence and you're following the process properly, every project, whether you've been working on desktop for 20 years and you're doing a desktop project this week, involves some amount of research and preparation. So if you're doing a mobile thing next week, you're still going to do some research and preparation for it. Just you're researching slightly you're casting the net slightly wider, aren't you?

SPEAKER_06:

Even if you're making assumptions based on years of experience, it should be with the idea to validate them at the uh preferably before it goes into development, but um as soon as possible.

SPEAKER_09:

I yeah, I think I think the skill sets are the same. I think the pitfalls though are if you design for desktop and you try and squash that into a mobile app, because you've known you know it's worked in the past, so why wouldn't it work on mobile? I think those are the things to watch out for. Yeah, dino desktop dinosaurs, I think I call them. Uh and watch out for those. And you know, and there's lots of different ways to interact with a mobile. And if you try and bring, you know, a keyboard and a mouse approach to a mobile, it's not gonna work. No. Um, but you know, as as Mark said, you know, there's there's there's actually more mobile phones in the world than there are toothbrushes. Crazy fact.

SPEAKER_04:

Wait, what?

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Um that's not true, sure.

SPEAKER_09:

It's true, it is true. Um, I did a talk and um I did some research, and yeah, there are more mobile phones in the world than there are toothbrushes.

SPEAKER_06:

Right, is that because you throw your toothbrush for years I've been trying to brush my teeth with my mobile. Yeah. My mouth's a fucking mess.

SPEAKER_03:

Is that is that because you throw your toothbrushes away after you're done with them, though? Whereas I've probably got a mobile phone in a drawer somewhere.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, I think I think it's that mobile phone in the drawer. Is that I I was clearing it.

SPEAKER_03:

So they're not necessarily being used.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, no, not yeah, yeah. Not necessarily. Well, it depends what statistics they have access to, isn't it? Yeah. Um, but yeah, I have three two three old phones lingering somewhere. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

And a hard one 70% of statistics are made up on the spot, though, aren't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The same way that six out of five people can't do fractions.

SPEAKER_09:

Oh, I love it. It's good. It's good. Yeah, but um I don't think I don't think, yeah, mob mobile mobile isn't a skill set, it's a different approach. Consideration. It's a yeah, it's not even consideration because I think if you think if you should always think if you're doing something on desktop, it should always work on mobile anyway, then you're not gonna you're not gonna fail.

SPEAKER_03:

Guaranteed. You've got balls, that's that's one of the best.

SPEAKER_06:

And you can take that to the mobile banking app.

SPEAKER_09:

Even if you sign up to the Patreon. Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_06:

That's it. Yeah, I think it's interesting. Uh, I'm not sure how much time we've got, but um, it's interesting to link this to that complex system stuff. Because a lot of the solutions, again, a lot of the solutions we've been talking about that are mobile first, are aren't complex systems. Stuff like AirSource and your e-commerce stuff, stuff like um your banking apps, they're talking the the general general individuals, you know, a lot of individuals trying to do pretty specific things. When you have specialized users with complex goals in mind, then I think you need to start thinking, if you're thinking mobile first, then you really do have to go back to the drawing board. You have to speak to those specialists and figure out what is it they're trying to solve, as opposed to just improving on on say an existing desktop solution.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, I totally agree. Because that that's where you know the desktop dinosaur comes into play where you can't, you know, you have that extinction level event that you can you can't migrate them into a new world. Um and you know, if you want to translate a desktop to mobile, you just can't do it.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah. I think it can be a tricky mindset to go to to examine because if you look at something like uh well um Nick and I are in automation, you look at process creation or or creating a flowchart or just designing something in general um like that, you tend to you tend to really lean on the methods that already exist to do that, which is you know, uh flowchart creation tool on desktop. So I think it can be really difficult to to reframe that perspective based on I th there's probably a correlation between how complex a system is and how difficult it is to reframe it for for a mobile first approach.

SPEAKER_03:

Just as a sidebar on that topic, when I was before I'd even done my first interview with with Paul for this job, I was already fiddling about with how you could turn the automation process of um where we work into a mobile app. And I've still got that somewhere. I I look at it sometimes. Um and it at the time it felt like something that would be much easier to achieve on a device, on a mobile um using you know like your standard um iPhone interaction and and almost the same layout you have on um just your home screen on your phone where you've got apps and each one of those apps could potentially be um a process or something or a tool. I I think it's I think it'd lend itself really well to be in uh a mobile first process app.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, definitely. I mean you look at you look at kind of oh god. Here's Coco.

SPEAKER_08:

Daddy!

SPEAKER_09:

Hello Yeah, what?

SPEAKER_08:

Such a great day for Cell Park!

SPEAKER_09:

Well, anyway, uh I have no idea what I was saying. Oh yeah, uh what I was gonna say about the you know, you think of automation, and a lot of automation is primarily done through your mobile app. You know, look at if this then that, uh, look at all the automations in Philips Hue app. Uh look at all the you know Siri shortcut, um, you know, all that automation is baked into you know mobile operating systems as well.

SPEAKER_06:

Um, so I yeah, it comes back to what we're saying earlier about using what's already integrated within you know the device, what comes out of the box with a mobile device to to leverage uh that and to create logic that can be applied to that specialised subject.

SPEAKER_09:

I think definitely. But you know, kind of yeah. If you're lining up stuff and dragging it around, you know, yeah you know, on your mobile, why not do that? Probably it's gonna be easier as well on mobile.

SPEAKER_03:

This has just raised a question in my head. You know how these days that now that most people work or a vast majority of people working an office sat at a desk at a desktop using a mouse and keyboard, the the phrase sitting is the new smoking has has come about, and it that the unforeseen um consequences of sitting at a desk all day are are having like uh a profound effect on the workforce these an unforeseen like effect on the workforce these days. Can you can you imagine if we went on, we moved on from the desktop to mobile and everyone's job was was on a mobile device. How much of a toll that would take if you had to sit on a chair or probably even just on a sofa or something? Like with you looking down, you know, people's necks have already started to go funny, and kids' necks are going funny from looking down at a mobile. Is that true? Citation needed on that one, yeah. Um yeah, you're getting again the faster horses guarantee that that is a real thing, um, but like that I can't I can't imagine the toll that'd take if you sat on a mobile phone for eight hours a day doing your job, doing automations or something.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, it depends, doesn't it? The the point is that you know what you've just stumbled into was essentially that desktop mobile um lift and shift trap that we mentioned earlier. The truth is, if we were a mobile-only workforce, then the entire way you work, be that the environment you're in or or the tasks you're completing on your device, would be completely different to how we see them now. I mean, how would you do a home DSE thing for that?

SPEAKER_03:

DSE. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

The companies don't even know what that stands for.

SPEAKER_03:

Where they say, you know, where they make sure that your desk and your chair are set up properly because it's a legal obligation that they have to do that.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, yeah, this is it. And the the interesting thing is the law would take at least eight years to catch up with the shifting workforces.

SPEAKER_03:

We'd all be using uh minority report style fucking floating grids by the time they're like using a mobile phone at yeah, I I think it's a it's a tricky one though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_09:

Kind of like you know, could could somebody sit on their mobile phone all day every day?

SPEAKER_03:

I mean they definitely could because they do, but yeah, if you had to do it as a job, I'm sure a lot of people would uh find a way. Weasel out of it.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, yeah, but we've said it, we said it again already. If you've got applications that are reading things out to you, or that are visualizing things in a different way, or employing haptic feedback to communicate several things at once, then all of a sudden you're actually far more um agile and far more free to move around than you were sat at a desk. I think that I actually think that if we went to a mobile-centered workforce that that we'd actually be a lot more healthier than we currently are sat in place, probably a lot more productive as well in terms of the man hours that businesses got out of people. Well, there is that because if I in that I read this Economist headline, so there's a source for you. Just a headline, mind, not paying for anything. Not the article. Um, but it it it said that apparently um it wasn't that people were necessarily more productive when they were working from home. The productivity levels were about the same, but they were putting more hours in. Yeah, yeah. Um, and that's what happens. Uh, you know, we could have another podcast about this, but that's what happens when you your work life and your living life merge. What?

SPEAKER_03:

Did you hear the timer? I did, yeah. I was trying to not acknowledge it, but yeah, um, yeah, I um I've found myself in the past month or so. Like I get I think a lot of this is because I work on the same projects with my girlfriend home in the same office, but we're like finishing work at seven o'clock at night just because I mean we've really not got anything better to do at the moment. I think that's a a side effect of coming out of lockdown as well. You forget that everything's open now and you can actually go out and do things, but uh yeah, I just sit and work until the evening now, just as something to do. Um, so I can definitely believe that.

SPEAKER_09:

Now it's time for UX Tombola, where we randomly pick a product, a thing, a process, or something we do in general life and discuss the user experience of it. Take out the good, the bad, and roast it to perfection.

SPEAKER_06:

Right, come on, come on, Nick. Have you have you got your pipes warmed up? Come on.

SPEAKER_03:

Me, me, me, me, me, me, me. You'd think that I'd think about this beforehand, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_06:

I think you should do it to the um Star Wars theme.

SPEAKER_03:

Stroke Superman, Stroke Classic Park. Sing one of them, and first of all, we'll try and guess which one it is.

SPEAKER_07:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Have you just left, Nick?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I can't I can't sing the music and the lyrics at the same time. I'm not Razel the beatbox.

SPEAKER_06:

No, you mean no, but you can sing them in a tune. You can sing lyrics in a tune, isn't that what singers do? Yeah. Oh right, yes. So like is everything you've been doing this time meant to be?

SPEAKER_04:

UX Tom Bash.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, the same words over and over again. Right.

SPEAKER_03:

Who's giving it a sp who's giving it a spin there? Well, I thought you were.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, I thought you were wheeling and spin spinning. Wheeling wheeling and spieling.

SPEAKER_03:

That sounds like um a detective duo from the early 80s BBC.

SPEAKER_02:

Detectives John Wheeling and Mark Stealing are wheeling and stealing.

SPEAKER_06:

It sounds like they're gonna go and raid bloody unclaimed storage lots. My name's Mark Stealing, and today we've gone a right newsie. I can tell this. Pile of armour to the highest bidder.

SPEAKER_02:

This sealed storage container was owned by an eight-year-old woman, Phyllis Gladenstein, and who died earlier this week. Right.

SPEAKER_04:

Anyway, go spin in. I'm spinning the spinner. Do it. Um what we got?

SPEAKER_03:

Uh so today's uh UX Tumboler is glasses cloths in brackets spectacles. Not to be confused with cloths that you clean pint glasses with, I suspect. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06:

I thought you meant the spectacle of a glasses cloth. And I was thinking, well, what possible spectacle? And the first thing that came to mind was Morris dancers.

SPEAKER_03:

Interesting, yeah, with the big handkerchiefs.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah. And have you ever seen a Morris dancer without glasses? Yes.

SPEAKER_09:

Oh, oh yes, I have.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, like they're like unicorn shite then, but that's but after the dance they put on the glasses. Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_03:

So I don't yeah, is that use their giant Morris dancer handkerchiefs to clean them before they do?

SPEAKER_09:

Oh yeah, totally, totally, with the bells on. That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_06:

Maybe that's what um well one of the things with uh glasses cloths is that you're always losing them. Yeah. Um so if you we could take a book out of the Morris dancers' book of glasses. Make clean them bigger and make them bigger and put bells on them.

SPEAKER_03:

One question I've always had about the glass I got I got a glasses cloth in my newest glasses, which I keep I keep in the case, incidentally, Mark, so that I don't lose it. But are you supposed to wash them?

SPEAKER_06:

I don't think so, because it's a microfiber, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03:

It's meant to be just specifically for but it doesn't get particles. Yeah, exactly. So if it's good at its job, it's dirty pretty soon, in it, which means you're just smearing shit back on your glasses, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06:

It depends what the bloody hell you're doing with your glasses on.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, everyone's dancing, that's for sure. I mean, like, I have to I'll I'll look at my glasses at this moment. Well, no, but if I like I make my dinner with them on, I go to the toilet with them on.

SPEAKER_08:

Like, they're gonna get some like to the toilet face.

SPEAKER_03:

If I mean yeah, maybe I shouldn't have said that last part. I like to no, I like to what I like to do is stand on my shoulders and then like piss into my own face.

SPEAKER_08:

That's good, is it?

SPEAKER_09:

Can I just clarify the definition of a uh glasses cleaning cloth?

SPEAKER_06:

Are we just are we just did it there? Well, like yeah, yeah. Is it that we assumed the clue was in the name for is it that tiny pissy little square that you get?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I mean I'm saying it's excuse me, it it's I got quite a decent one with my glasses, but like historically it was like the crappy little yellow ones that were just made out of cotton that you used to get. Um yeah. I got like quite a nice little microfiber one, as Mark said.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Interestingly, there does seem to be a correlation between how much money you spend on your glasses and the quality of the cloth you get. Yeah. Um getting wrong. Yeah, that's it. When you're getting your glasses for£2.50 at Bolton Market, then you're not just sacrificing more than your eyesight. Just throwing shade at Bolton Market. Oh, look, look, there's there's lots of quality goods you can get at Bolton Market. A word from our sponsors, Bolton Market. Hello, would you like to come to Bolton Market? We've got lots of lovely things. We're buying glasses.

SPEAKER_01:

My gods' cloth Mark Steeler's got the clothing parium. All the best glasses, all the best glasses of cloths from around the world. We've got cotton. That's not it. 27,000 varieties of cotton closing cloud.

SPEAKER_06:

But only one fabric. Isn't that right, John? Um but the to to continue with my riveting story about the quality correlation of glasses clothes, which wasn't a sentence I thought I'd say today. That's not on the bingo sheet of Mark's vernacular. Um, was that Christopher um had like I think he had a pair of uh a glasses case handed in, which was like a designer one. We're talking thousands of pounds worth of glasses. Um so um and he he there was no glasses in there, so there wasn't really a great deal he could do, and he ended up bringing the microfiber cloth and case for some reason back home with him one day. Um and I can tell you that was the finest microfiber glasses cloth I've ever experienced. I've still got it somewhere, um, but I lost my glasses like 18 months ago, so you know I'm not needing them.

SPEAKER_09:

Well what I find, which is really horrible, and probably uh due to my purchasing from Bolton Markets, yeah, is that these cloths are so small that when you rub them on your glasses, you because I I do this, I wrap the cloth around the lenses and do this uh pinching motion, yes, and rub it up and down, and then when if you got if your cloth is too small, which is inevitably any cloth, uh, and you end up then smearing a greasy thumb or fingerprints across the bloody glass when you're thinking like, oh shit, I thought I was doing it with the cloth.

SPEAKER_03:

And then you get it just to like optimum cleanliness, yeah, and then you and then your bone slips off, yeah, and you're grubbing grime on this, isn't it?

SPEAKER_09:

You think, oh god, I should have dipped it in the cow fat or something, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah, that's uh that's a direct scene from Greg Wallace at the sausage factory where he's cleaning it, industriously cleaning his glasses. He's like, oh, fucking perfect. I don't know what accent he's got now. And then he gets a sausage finger all over it.

SPEAKER_09:

And another bugbear is yeah, another bugbear is the the amount of huffing I have to do to clean my glasses.

SPEAKER_06:

You see, I always stuff like that. I'm not much of a clean freak. I mean, you should see the state of my apartment, but um stuff like that I don't like. Yeah. Because I just think you're breathing everything onto something that could then going onto your face.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, putting it on your eye.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah. And especially if like oh, can I borrow your glasses? Oh no. Fucking goblin breath all over my eyeballs. No, thank you. So get me a cloth, that means I don't have to suffer that, please.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, in terms of a solution to this, that I almost bought some off Amazon last year, which is like um, it's almost like a pair of tongs, but at the end of the tongs are like two little round microfiber pads. I've seen them, yes. Have you seen them? And you can't buy them in packs less than like of like 25. So I was like a bit excessive. When when we were still in the office, I was gonna buy a pack and then come in and give them out. So, like James and Paul, uh, all those uh the other James all wear glasses. I was just gonna buy myself some and then just give a few away just a cluster.

SPEAKER_09:

Sell them at all to market. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_08:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Swelter market.

SPEAKER_06:

Uh that feels like it's a very over-engineered solution, though. Yeah, that's exactly what we're about here at at UX Tomballer.

SPEAKER_03:

It seems very like it's taken a heavy toll on the planet for keeping your glasses clean. That said, I've got Drew's bought some like glasses cleaner wipes, and they look as if they're absolutely terrible for the environment, because they come in a box, and then each wipe comes in a packet, and then I'm pretty sure the wipe is not biodegradable or paper. So it's like a three what you've got there is three levels of plastic. Yeah, yeah. For something that could be achieved by just breathing on it and using my shirt.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah. Which is incidentally probably the most common way of cleaning your glasses. Way of cleaning your glasses, yeah. So when it comes to glasses cloths, really they're not solving a problem, but they're creating problems. Because you've got to lose them, you're gonna destroy the environment one way or the other. Um they get dirty, so they've got a different dependency there. I think just bin them. I think just get rid of them.

SPEAKER_03:

I I think they must have been like a USP back in the day where there were like opticians and they were like, ah, if you come to us, you get a free glass of cloth. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And they were just handing out a Kleenex tissue to everyone. But the elastic don't wash it, it's microfiber.

SPEAKER_09:

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

We've breathed on this one for you, I read it's a bit moist.

SPEAKER_03:

That that word again was moist.

SPEAKER_06:

That had the proper ASMR reaction, but I did not enjoy it.

SPEAKER_03:

That's away from me.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh, well, there's your solution for yeah, there's got to be a better solution.

SPEAKER_09:

I did see someone invented uh windscreen wipers. Oh, look at that time. Oh, look at that. Someone did invent windscreen wipers for your glasses. That I saw.

SPEAKER_03:

Is it a Shindogu uh useless invention? Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_09:

Is it um oh, which does remind me actually of uh more useless inventions. Um I was in a uh waiting room once, and there was uh one of those magazines, was it like Hello or something benal like that? And they had like a a reader's useful inventions spread. It wasn't even a page, it was a spread. Uh and one of the one of my favourite readers' inventions ever was somebody turned old glasses cases into a poop holster that for a dog. A poop poop holster for a dog, and then they fashioned it around a waistcoat for a dog, and then inside the glasses cases, there was one each side, kind of western style, yeah, uh, that you could put the dog's poo bags in. So if you were not near a bin, the dog could carry its own feces home, which I thought was right ingenious, and yeah, I'm sure there's strange from glasses cases. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03:

I think of several other bags that would do that. Why does a dog have to take its feces home?

SPEAKER_09:

Well, you know, why not? Why do we have to carry on? Sentimental reasons.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, yeah, I mean, can't you can't just put it in a bin or bury it?

SPEAKER_09:

Well, this is only if there's not a bin nearby.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, and you haven't got your your trowel or your dibber with you to to make a hole to bury bury shit with. You don't have a dog, do you?

SPEAKER_03:

I'm assuming that they just yeah, they maintain themselves. Is that not the case?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, I mean, I think they do. It's just that um I mean this is a consideration of mine. Pooh, by and large, biodegradable. Yeah. Unless you've been eating excessive amounts of, I don't know, um non-biodegradable for these glasses wipes.

SPEAKER_03:

Then I think if you didn't if if the nation didn't have plumbing, I think would we'd soon know about it though.

SPEAKER_06:

I don't think we'd just be like, I know, but I'm not talking I'm not talking about en masse rejection of plumbing. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to to wrap dog shit in non-biodegradable plastic.

SPEAKER_09:

Oh it is it is by no, it is biodegradable.

SPEAKER_06:

Is it like the uh the food bags?

SPEAKER_09:

Like like the food bags, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

I wonder what deficit of of kind of non-biodegradable bags full of dog shit are now floating around the Gulf Stream being swallowed by turtles.

SPEAKER_09:

485. Oh, is that all? Yeah. That's much less than I thought. Well, the turtles have out all the others. Oh right.

SPEAKER_06:

That's a wrong kind of kindergarten, isn't it? You don't want that surprise.

SPEAKER_05:

Are we done?

SPEAKER_09:

That's another episode in the bag. Thanks for listening. Don't forget you can sign up to our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash fasterhorses for an exclusive extended version of this episode, as well as bonus content each month, and other perks detailed on the site. Don't forget to subscribe on your preferred streaming service and follow us on Twitter at Fasterhorses UX. Catch you in a couple of weeks for another episode, and we'll see you soon.

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Paul Wilshaw

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