Faster Horses | A podcast about UI design, user experience, UX design, product and technology

My Door is Always Open (Are Job Titles Meaningless?)

• Faster Horses • Season 3 • Episode 4

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In this episode we discuss Job titles, are they even useful even more? Who decides what titles mean? Does your Job title sum up what you do?

And of course, everyones favourite, UX Tombola, featuring Mark Stealer

Music by James Medd


Patreon Producers for this episode:
Rob Singleton
Ant Jones

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All this and more are answered in this episode of Faster Horses, a podcast about UX, UXR, UI design, products and technology (sometimes!)

🐎 80% comedy, 20% UX, 0% filler

👕 Get stickers and tees at https://www.paulwilshaw.com/shop/

The show is hosted by:
Paul Wilshaw
https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulwilshaw/
and
Mark Sutcliffe
https://www.linkedin.com/in/sutcliffemark/

If you want to suggest an idea, or join us on the show, send us a message 👆.

SPEAKER_01:

You crap use the chat.

SPEAKER_03:

Hello and welcome to Faster Horses. I'm Paul Shaw at Paul Shaw on Twitter, and these are my co-hosts Mark Sutcliffe, which is Mark's out of ten.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_03:

And Mick Tomlinson at MT Illustrators.

SPEAKER_04:

Hello.

SPEAKER_03:

This is series three, series three! But if you haven't heard of series one or two, uh you can check those out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, you can find us in loads of places. Now you can get this extended version of the same episodes early by signing up to our Faster Horses Patreon, as well as one extra Patreon exclusive episode a month, along with other benefits to all the signs. Don't forget to like and subscribe, it really does help the show, and also follow our official Twitter page at FasterHorsesUX for regular updates, find show topics, and interesting articles and random musings for the team. Also, if you want to give us feedback, send us some feedback. Now, without further ado, let's go on to the show.

SPEAKER_02:

Did we figure out the game stuff?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you're a bit echoey though. I don't know what's going on.

SPEAKER_02:

Me? Me? I often am. It's because I'm in a little alcove.

SPEAKER_05:

Alcald? Alcald.

SPEAKER_02:

Alright.

SPEAKER_05:

Nick's a bit screedy.

SPEAKER_02:

I thought you were swearing then. Oh me. Nick's a bit fuckety.

SPEAKER_06:

It has been said.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. He's echoey. He's loud and he's fuckety. I am fucketty.

SPEAKER_06:

That'll be my personal reference. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I got asked in a an interview once if you uh now if you if you ask me, this is a bad thing this kind of ties into the subject, doesn't it? So this is good. I'll I'll stop cutting myself off and actually carry on with what I was saying. So I got asked in a in an interview once, and the wording of this is very important, which is what I said to the woman after I answered. She said, How would your friends describe you? Not how would you describe yourself?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I got asked this.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, how would your friends describe you? And I told her, and the look on her face wasn't too impressed. And I was like, Well, my my friends are awful. So you you asked. Um and needless to say, I didn't get the job.

SPEAKER_02:

Go on then.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, it's so I made it I made it out to sound better than it was, but I said unreasonable, and then she was like, and then and then she wanted me to explain what I meant by unreasonable.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh yeah, you would. Yeah, and I was like, no, I'm not doing that. Just to exemplify how unreasonable you are.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was like, yeah, I'm not, yeah, I'm not doing that. Oh, that's completely reasonable. Um yeah, so I just I just told the story of how that came up because I have actually been described as unreasonable by Jimmy, you know Jimmy also. Yeah, yeah. Um shout out to Jimmy Olson.

SPEAKER_03:

Jimmy Olson.

SPEAKER_06:

Jimmy Olson, yeah. From the Olsen brothers, the 70s 70s boy brand.

SPEAKER_03:

I was thinking the photographer from uh Superman.

SPEAKER_05:

Who am I thinking of? Jimmy Olsen.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm sure that's I have no idea who either of you are thinking of at this point.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, Jimmy Olsen is the photographer from Superman. So, yeah, the fictional character Jimmy Olson.

SPEAKER_03:

I missed that question as well. What did you say, Mark, though? I'm interested.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, I got asked, and I just said, Well, they tend to define me as Mark, as pretty undescribable. But then I made the mistake of asking my friend how she would describe me, and she said, You're just fabulous, Mark. And I thought, um, lovely as that is, it's not necessarily what an employer wants to hear. I agree for what it's worth. Thank you, thank you. I certainly don't look fabulous now. I look like I meant on the inside. Oh, thank you. Yeah, yeah. I mean on the outside, I look like I've been dug up from a shipwreck. I was having to explain to my fellow contemporaries at work um why saying my door is always open is one of the most toxic and uh negative things you can say to a um your workforce and how it just does not mean anything.

SPEAKER_03:

It also implies that you occasionally shut it and you don't want to be hassled.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's it's a it's a very delicate way of saying I have a door. You don't. I have a door.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And you remember that anytime I want. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Fuck you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I don't necessarily want you to open my door. But it's it's there if you want to do it. By my door is open always open, I could mean my door is occasionally unlocked, uh, which means that you still need to come and knock on the door to open it and make every effort in that direction. But uh, you know, I give you the ability to do that because I'm a magnanimous individual who cares about me.

SPEAKER_06:

It's very made that sound very sinister.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, well, I do I find it sinister as well, and I always think then so you because so if somebody says that, that says to me that they've not got time for you.

SPEAKER_06:

All especially all the time, and you're kind of like, oh, you can uh meet in and yeah, it sounds like I'm gonna make myself scarce until you need me. Yeah. And I'm I'm not gonna involve myself with anything that you're doing until something bad happens, essentially.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And then when something bad happens, I'll be out of the office. Yeah, so no one will be there.

SPEAKER_06:

The door will be open because I left it open when I left.

SPEAKER_03:

Fuck you and fuck your face.

SPEAKER_02:

Which is directly how I interpret anyone who says, My doors are always open. Thank you, Mark.

SPEAKER_03:

Thanks. Um yeah, that that question, you know, uh going back to kind of how um kind of like oh, how would your friends describe you? I always think that that's a that's a weird question ever to ask in an interview, because either you're gonna be honest and you're kind of like, how are your friends see you? And kind of like a lot of people, I don't quite think they know how their friends would really describe them.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, I mean that's the thing, I know exactly how my friends would describe them, and it's not something I want to say in an interview. So, what sort of a question is that to ask? You either I either lie to you, or I tell you the truth, and either way, that's not the ideal response.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, it it goes on to interviews, uh interview stuff where really the internally they've got a checklist of things they want you to say, which apparently extends to what your friends think of you. Yeah. It's like turn around and say, Well, we've known each other for 15 minutes now, and I think of you as a friend. How do you think of me? Friend, and then stare at them unblinkingly for the next 13 minutes.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my god, this is some horror film creepiness about that.

SPEAKER_02:

You can turn around to them and say, Friend, my door is always open for you.

SPEAKER_06:

I was genuinely upset. Right, should we should we backtrack a little bit and actually introduce the episode?

SPEAKER_03:

Shall we?

SPEAKER_02:

I think that sounds appropriate, yeah. We've actually dived straight into it for a second.

SPEAKER_06:

Um so Paul. Yeah, I think I think you suggested this one, did you? I think you did.

SPEAKER_03:

I know you suggested it.

SPEAKER_06:

Well, I put so I put it to anyone who's listening, we've got uh a WhatsApp group where we literally just post possible topics that we want to talk about on the sausages made. Yeah, yeah, we've done that one. Um you can go back on all good streaming services and uh listen to that, or even the extended version on Patreon. And Patreon forward slash faster horses u it. Uh what was I saying?

SPEAKER_03:

Is that ghosts? A small crap.

SPEAKER_05:

What the hell is going on? It's crazy.

SPEAKER_06:

Clapping ghosts. Alright. Thanks, guys. Um what was the topic? Oh, yeah, so I've got I've I put job titles in there, and then Paul volunteered that for this week's episode. So technically, Paul, you've got to introduce it.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, okay. Fair enough, fair enough. I think this is a really good one because I think even as so we we call this um a UX podcast, even though we probably don't talk about UX purely as as kind of like a massive topic. And UX stands for user experience, and there are uh 101 different job titles in UX, and kind of I don't even think UX people know what all the job titles are and what the job titles mean. Absolutely. Yeah, one day you could be applying for a product designer um which will include UX, and the next day you could be uh doing a job interview for a UX designer. They'll include UI design, UX research, and everything else. So yeah, I think this is a really good one and a quite a nice I'll do that again, quite a nice hot topic because UX, I still think UX is quite infantile in the job marketplace. It's quite newish subjects.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, even the terminology, you know, you could only say that started to come together in about mid to late 90s, um, even though the job description has been around. Uh so I do the inductions at work for for everyone who joins the company, it's about eight people every two weeks. Um, and most of them are not user experienced people and have a limited understanding of what user experience is. Um and one of the things that I say say at the start of these inductions is that user experience tends to mean different things to different businesses, and the relative maturity or age of a company, um not to mention the kind of uh product or or software or service it's it's building and providing, I think can really distort or or or influence what people think UX design actually is within that organization.

SPEAKER_03:

I think there's there's a lot of issues as well. I think because because of kind of like the where UX has come from. So UX has come from a lot of design roles, and people have either adapted into a UX role or they're brand new to it, um, or you've even got kind of like people who can like self-talk like me. Uh apologies. Uh um, but in you know, and then you've got you know kind of what that job should do and what that job entails, and like that is often not aligned to the job description or what the realms of UX is, what UX is taught, um, and even even kind of like there's a lot of things that we don't quite, you know, kind of like you'll be putting down like uh Laurel Ips and copy in your designs and then kind of like people reject the design because it's not the proper copy, so you'll have to write copy for that design, and you know, and then other people come from it kind of like a brochure, and you're designing like print on a digital medium, and like you know, there wasn't the user experience of brochures, although there was kind of like you know, how to tell a good story and some elements of it, but there isn't the user experience. There was kind of like some quirky things, and kind of like you know, if you if you fold open and kind of like you know, you're surprised and delight when you go through a brochure, but you don't have kind of like you know, oh we've got to sell uh you know what's the clicking on this, and kind of like how many people are on that, and uh it's noisy in my background, so I'm gonna shop talking.

SPEAKER_06:

Um, but you're getting the idea, yes. It's very on brand for faster horses. Yeah, so I I think yeah, what you say is is very accurate. I've had a bit of insight into this recently, so cat's out of the bag now. I can talk about it. Um I'm but I'm switching jobs in uh a couple of weeks, and I've been applying for jobs for quite a while now. And one of the things I've noticed about like job descriptions titled UX designer is I think I think job descriptions in general, particularly these days, and their definitions are essentially created and and proliferated by recruiters because they need they need a tag to recruit people under, um, and they need to like quantify what they're gonna be doing and what experiences needed and stuff. And from what I can see online, UX designer now just means digital designer. It's basically I mean there's there's hardly any, if any, job descriptions for like graphic designer on on Reed or what's the other one, uh indeed, like just don't exist, and if if there is, there's like one or two a month, like literally. And I think they've just latched onto this term of UX designer, and anything that's digital, anything that involves working, you know, on software or particularly websites, you're a UX designer. And when you go through some of the job specs, it's a pretty good indicator of like what what the comp like how uh mature the company is in terms of like that area of the department, uh or that area of the business. So I was looking at one the other day, or the other week, should I say, and they had things like um helping create like branding, tone of voice, design documents for marketing and stuff like that, as well as like user research, uh user experience design and stuff like that. And it's like, well, if you think that's what a UX designer is, it that's a bit of a red flag that like you you don't really know what you want, do you? You just want you want a designer, but everyone's calling it UX designer at the moment, and I think the term's kind of gotten out of control now, and it just means anything.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'd uh I think it it ag it does with so first of all I completely agree that um a job spec could be a great indication of the maturity of a UX company because if a because there's a the NNG scale, isn't there, of of of UX maturity of an organization. Um and I think if you if you have a company that's very mature, they're gonna have quite specific expectations and uh skill sets. In fact, they're probably gonna have different roles for uh UX designers, UX writers, you UX researchers, and so they become by more defined uh intrinsically because of that. I think the obverse of that is you get a lot of people who um who have read an article or been to a conference on on the the design on design or something that's probably not quite UX design, and they've heard UX as a term thrown around. Identified one or two gaps, but probably just trying to shoehorn a bit of UX into their business without quite understanding where the gaps are that they need to plug and how to create uh more fulfilling processes to it to implement good UX into their software. Um, and I think that's kind of where you get these um weird mixed roles where you're doing a bit of copywriting and then you'll help the marketing team and then you'll speak to customers, and it's not quite galvanized in the logical way. Thank you, Nick.

SPEAKER_06:

Did that not mute then? I pressed the mute button on my microphone, Matt. 120 pound microphone. We'll we'll fix that in post, sorry about that. Um that happens to me all the time, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

I pressed the button, it would fucking flash in.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. Blue sort your app down. Oh, one second, you know what that could mean. Are you using your blue are you using the right microphone?

SPEAKER_06:

Well, yeah, I checked it in the inputs thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_06:

We'll also cut this out.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Um yeah, yeah, so where was I? Um But yeah, I was just as I was saying, I think um that's where you get these weird Frankenstein roles from.

SPEAKER_06:

I think you touched on something, sorry Paul, I think you touched on something there as well, where people just don't we I think we've covered this in previous previous podcasts, but people just don't know what UX is, they think it's how something looks, they think it's graphic design personally, don't they? And we think it's get a team of people in to make our website look better or make our product look better so that more people buy it, and so that sales team and execs have got something to show people when they go in. Um that's what they think UX departments do, I think.

SPEAKER_02:

So and the surprise, the surprise when you turn around as a a UX lead or strategist or something like that, and say, Yeah, sorry, we have to gut your entire product to you, and start again because you've got people going around this the wrong way.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, uh rather than admit they made a terrible mistake and they've recruited five people that they don't want or need, they just kind of oh yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, yeah, yeah. I think they they probably recognise that they need it. What they don't want to admit is that all the work that they've been doing in the past has really not been on the right trajectory, and it's not it's not leading them um their current investment strategy, be that investment in people, technology, whatever it is, isn't going to land them in their lead role.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I think inter interestingly though, because I think this is this is where the real power of UX is, and and you can tell businesses that and they don't necessarily have to have uh you know a well-established UX team, but they've got to listen to the customers. That's the key thing, what the customers want and what the trends in the market are doing as well. Because I was I was reading an article yesterday about um affinity design.

SPEAKER_06:

Um I hate to be a pedant, but I Was trying to users. Do you mean users or do you mean customers?

SPEAKER_03:

Customers. Customers. Okay, yeah. I just wanted to clarify clarifying my own. So yeah, yeah, listen because the um so yeah, because I will uh so affinity design, they made this really cool app that was kind of taken on Photoshop. But what happened in the market between them releasing this? They got they were lucky enough to get featured on the front page of the the app store, and they made this desktop app for designers. Uh and they were kind of like really kind of like went went to town with like the UX, looking at kind of like all the pitfalls of kind of Photoshop, and then kind of building on those and making a really cool tool that we use to design it. But what happened in the background is the people stopped using Photoshop to do website design and then they kind of pivoted their whole company based on this one app and went to a multi-app uh business then and they targeted then photographers, so they specialized their apps then and streamlined them for that one particular person, one customer base. And in this case, you know, kind of they did affinity photography and they kind of targeted the phot the photography market where as Photoshop was this big bloated thing that did absolutely everything, and they said, Look, we're gonna do this, we're gonna kind of base it on everything is gonna be you know lens based, and everything's gonna be like your digital dark room. And then on the you know, at the same time, they had um an illustrator kind of uh app and they made that as well, and they became hugely successful because they changed their market from going from a digital design tool to honing in on photography because they knew that's what they were good at and knew that's what they were doing, and it's that listening to customers that you know and the potential market, and that's why I say customers and not users, because um like if you ask your users what they want.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh sorry, you broke up then.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah, if if you ask your users what they want, they'll probably say better, faster tools or faster horses. Um, not not that um that was ever a quote, but uh we'll we'll pick that up in another episode. Um, and you know, if you ask your users what they want, they'll probably say, Oh, I want another hundred tools to do this, I want another thing like that. But they were quite clever and they they split out their product into three different apps, uh, and rather than making one big bloated app, they kind of really uh identified their target audience and went for that customer basing and probably lost some customers in the process or lost users in the process. So when was this like what when uh this was uh kind of like a yeah, it was about four four years ago and they went through uh and they were kind of popular, and then they kind of went into that kind of like real photography basis.

SPEAKER_06:

So they're like all the way in on photography then now, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Well, they do quite a few things, so they do illustration stuff and they do a few other apps, but yeah, they their apps now are very laser focused for that um customer base and that target audience over kind of like what you know. If they were kind of trying to bring in all those Photoshop users, people would just say, I want that feature in Photoshop, I want that feature in Illustrator in it, I want, you know, can I do some timeline editing? Can I do 3D stuff, you know, and all that, all that grap. And you end up with this product that takes people absolutely ages to learn because it's so huge and complex. So yeah, there's there's there's there's all that, and I think, you know, kind of going back to the topic of the the subject, you know, job titles, they are user-focused. And it if a business is user focused, then I don't think it matters what job title is, but the business has to be user focus, and and I think a lot of you know, kind of like I think it's recruiters and not people not applying for graphic design jobs because they know there's more money in UX design, or that's where they want to go to because their friends are doing it, or something like that. And I wonder if they are.

SPEAKER_06:

I suspected like a while ago that that is why they're all listed as UX designer now, because the the designer gets an extra five, ten grand, and therefore the recruiter's cut is bigger for recruiting them. So all the recruiters are like, oh yeah, yeah, no, that's a UX designer, that is, and the market rate for that is uh you know so and so thousand. I that kind of terminology and that conversation is controlled by by recruiters, I think.

SPEAKER_03:

I think in part, and I think in part of kind of like people just looking on LinkedIn and just getting like, oh, what's out there? What do I need? Um I think it's uh it's an interesting point.

SPEAKER_02:

I think there must exist good and accurate job titles and job descriptions. Um uh I mean they do in other industries. Uh I I'm thinking like of the the film industry as a parallel, um, or or the game industry, where you have you know the very well-established industries now, especially relative to UX, um, and they have uh within them very specialized roles which all do very select, all have very select responsibilities. Um and I'd go back to that point where you can a UX designer now is becoming what the UX designer title is to me becoming what the graphic designer title was, which is the graphic designer title. When I was a graphic designer, I designed pub signs, I did um architectural visualizations, I did 3D models, I did um bits of graphic design here and there. That was all under graphic designer. When I moved on to become a UX designer, that was because I wanted to specialise within the remit of design of graphic design in this particular instance. And UX at that time, which was only a number a number of years ago, um felt like it was becoming more specialized, as uh you know, alongside such things as 3D designers or interaction designers and stuff like that. And I feel now what's happened because of the stuff you've mentioned, Nick, about like um recruiters jumping on the bandwagon and stuff like that, UX has become that blotted term. And I think if you want to become a UX designer, it's now pertinent to think about what type of user experience designer you want to be, um, because or what kind of people perhaps, moreover, you want to work with. Like if you want to work with customers and users and researchers, that would be one type of experience designer. You've got your work with business analysts, you've got your work with researchers, as I say, product owners, managers, so you can work more towards that size and process-driven stuff, strategy. Then you've got your UX writing and your technical authorship, you've got your illustration, your graphic design. All these now fall under user experience. Um, and the overlap, yeah, but they are inherently different. So I think there's a bit of um you've got to read between the lines of every job description you see to understand actually what this role is, because the title isn't enough to go off.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, well the spec now is more important than what the title will be going into is really that's that's kind of what I was getting at, is like when you read through the job spec, it gives you an insight into whether this company even knows what they want or what they're gonna be doing, or what you're gonna be doing when you get in there. Definitely. I think that I f I don't think really unless you unless you're focused on how your C V looks to your next employer. Like I don't think job titles are all that important, really. Even really when it comes to like senior and lead and stuff, I've never really focused on that. I'm just more interested in what I'm gonna be doing when I'm in there.

SPEAKER_02:

That was one of the things I wanted to ask about regarding um job description and job uh titles is where does seniority come into this and how how does that reflect you as a graphic designer? Because there are a lot of companies, especially those who are less UX mature, who use levels of seniority quite strictly to measure the salary brackets, the roles and responsibilities, and stuff like that. So, what are your guys' thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_03:

I I'm gonna say I think this is a hugely outdated process, uh controlled by HR, and in part by kind of like you know, because like if you have a bracket for a salary, it's so easy to say then that you're in this bracket, you're doing this job and this. I'm I'm a real believer in paying people for what they're worth and what they bring to the team. So if you want somebody who can do illustration, who's really good at illustration. You can if somebody's a real people person, you know, they may not be a head of, you know, they may not be a senior, but I'd rather pay somebody a bit more money and get the right person than give them the job title. Uh, you know, and just think, and sometimes I mean I remember when I was recruiting for for leads and uh and they're really hard job really hard roles to recruit for because um and apologies to any good seniors out there, but I what I found was that people coming into a senior role were didn't have the skills because they were more managers, and they didn't have the actual skills of doing stuff, which is you know, which is fine if you want a management structure, but let's face it, most jobs these days don't you know you don't go into a job and just manage people uh nowadays, you know, you kind of do something, you kind of, you know, and if you are managing something all day and that's your what your job is doing, then perhaps there's something fundamentally wrong with that organization.

SPEAKER_06:

That well, you're probably not a UX designer, right?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, exactly, yeah. And then you know, you're applying for a senior, and I want somebody with experience. Uh and HR told me I've got to advertise it as a senior because it's in this salary bracket. Whether as really I just want somebody who knows their shit, come in, do a job, and you know, I don't have to worry about kind of like going like, oh, you're doing that, you're doing that today, you know, and they can think for themselves. Um, but you find a lot kind of like once you get to a certain level, they're just pushing pieces of paper around. Sorry, anybody out there who's doing that. Um, I've probably offended like how um kind of like two-thirds of my LinkedIn. They wouldn't listen anyway. Yeah, no, they've got the door closed in their office.

SPEAKER_06:

Too busy managing people, aren't they? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've I've I've worked in places where you know both apply where it's um it's a it's directly linked to like what your level is and your pay scale and stuff, and then it's and then in other places it's linked to like how just how long you've been there. And it doesn't necessarily in those places really it doesn't necessarily mean that you've got any like command over people, it's just it's just a nod and a bit of a reflection of your time spent at the at the business. I think sometimes like particularly recently, we've had on our team people who've had to like pick up work that necessarily doesn't reflect their their job title in the business, and I think in on that occasion where they're given like lead or senior or whatever, it's just a bit of a nice recognition of the work that they've done. I think in in those cases it's quite a good it's quite a good thing, particularly where you come into a business on a certain level and you're acknowledged and you're given like a bump in your in your title. I don't know if you know I haven't spoken to anyone about whether or not that is uh a bump in salary as well, but I think from that point of view it's they're quite a good thing. Because sometimes if you didn't have that bump in your job title, you wouldn't really get any acknowledgement, any official acknowledgement for what you've been doing.

SPEAKER_02:

Um I think that's one of the important things, one of the important things that a good well-structured job title can do, uh, and that's when it I say well-structured, I mean when it fits into a company's structure well, um, is because it does give that recognition. If you think about uh UX in let's say you've got a company that is say not have just introduced an UX, not very mature with a UX in the company, and what they do is they bring people on board, uh the company's doing well, it's integrating UX well, so its maturity escalates accordingly, uh, which is always a good thing, it's developing. Uh, they're bringing more people on board. What tends to happen is that your uh original team will maintain those responsibilities where they were doing at the beginning a bit of everything, uh, because you had three people uh like starting a design system or what have you, and they tend to take that on proportionally as they go. And I think if you don't have a means, and I I'd argue that um job title is one such means of kind of measuring those responsibilities, then you end up with uh say you have a team of 16 UX designers who are all called UX designer, but the original three are still like doing everything and end up and their their job responsibilities end up blotting because they're not defined by by their job description or their job title very well.

SPEAKER_03:

Definitely. And and this is where I think this is this is where the problem is with you know just recruiting UX designers to do everything. I wrote an article a while ago called In 10 Years Design Will Be Dead.

SPEAKER_06:

I read that either. Nice. Uh it's good.

SPEAKER_03:

Thank you. Um and and that and I kind of break down kind of some of those UX roles in there and kind of like and a lot of it's kind of from you know, kind of like an agency background, and they and then if if an agency was giving you a full UX service, they would recruit all these different people with different skill sets to do this. Um, and then if you are a UX designer in maybe kind of like a uh an underdeveloped uh company, you either then get treated as kind of one of two ways. You either get treated as a marketing person or you get treated as a developer person. Uh and either of those is not quite a fit for um UX design because you know, uh marketing is about making money, UX is all about uh customers' needs and wants and impressions and you know and retaining customers rather than getting the next customer. Uh or you know, on the same side, if you treat a UX designer as a developer and split them up from their creative counterparts on a you know set because you only need one designer per sprint team, or you need a designer per two sprint teams, you know, and you never ask a developer to split across two sprint teams. So why would you ask a designer to do that? And also, if you've only got one designer on one sprint team, uh usually what you do with developers, they do merge requests, you have to check your own work, you test it, you don't have any of that, you don't have any of that luxury, any of that kind of uh niceness. If you separate designers off into their little kind of like uh squads or things like that, and if you've only got one person, they're not gonna you're not gonna get the best out of that person. And um, I think there's something in development called rubber ducking. Uh, and um if you've got a problem, you talk to a rubber duck and you kind of solve it yourself, and those kind of things. Designers do exactly the same things, but you know, we're probably like as UX designers, we like to talk to people, and that's why we're in this job because we like to get to know people and get under the skin of people, apart from Nick.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh um, you enter to user experience design to get away from people, didn't you?

SPEAKER_05:

An unintended consequence of UX design again.

SPEAKER_03:

Um, but yeah, and and you know, you kind of need that little, you know, and whether it's um, you know, and if you are the only UX designer in a company, because your company is very small, yeah, cool, but you know, don't treat them as another development resource or another, you know, uh design resource, and one day you're doing presentations and the next day you're doing brochure design, and the next day you're doing digital design, because they might not be the best for that person, you know, that skill set might be kind of a team of people, and I think people don't realise that that it's a team.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, I'm starting to see um the like well, I'm starting to see the separation between like quote unquote designers and dev people as problematic because developers are designers as well, aren't they? And when you and when you start splitting them out in and and like delineating between them in such very specific terms, it it becomes like problematic. You you start splitting up your you know, we work on on the atomic scale, and the idea of that is that everyone like sort of throws in and we all design these things together, basically. And when you're splitting developers away from the designers, it you start creating this atmosphere where like you're almost almost facing them off against each other, unless you actively work like against that, don't you?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and then then you always get then if you you know if that company wants to move away from developer-led software uh design, you know, which which you see all over the place, kind of like, you know, oh let's build something. We don't need to code sort of thing, yeah, and then you know, we'll just we'll just code something, yeah, we'll just make it, you know, because this is what we had to do. Um, and you end up then you kind of put a designer in that, you know, in that field, and what you're always doing then is yeah, you're either facing off against the majority. Yeah, yeah, and you've you're always then kind of like a minority against a majority, yeah. And it's automatic, you know. Yeah, and then you know what's gonna happen in those situations if you've got five developers on a team, one designer, the majority is always gonna be the this.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, that's gonna be the five. I I'm quite happy to argue with those odds, like quite quite confidently, but a lot of people aren't and and then that just causes and you shouldn't be expected to either, that's the thing. Like yeah, exactly. You know, some of the designers I know are quite quite quiet and and introspective and they shouldn't be expected to have arguments professionally with other people that are on the same team. That's just not a good way to work. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It's alright to disagree. Um yeah a lot of a lot of um constructive conversations can happen through disagreements especially between people who work so closely together as designers and developers should do. But if you're in a situation where that disagreement is five people against one person, like I mean any kind of scenario there isn't isn't desirable. I think one of the key takeaways from this though, one of the for me at least one of the key things that I see in the value of good job titling and good job titles is that um sure you're able to arrange job titles but more importantly you're able to to arrange the relationships between those job titles. And you're able to anticipate um if you've got a good specification under your job design your job titles you're able to anticipate that your UX writers will have to speak to your UX designers, UI developers and technical authors. And if you've got interaction designers you know you know that they're going to sit between developers and um designers. If you've got illustrators you know they're gonna have to have relationships with marketing and as well as as the rest of the design team. And I think if you do have a good handle on what each of these jobs does, what the titles are, what the descriptions are then you can start to understand the relationships and thus implement processes that actually are effective and you don't just end up with design by committee even if it is a committee of designers.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah well yeah yeah I mean like saying design by committee it doesn't imply that we don't want the input of like people who aren't designers it it's saying that we don't want design by committee even yeah I've never really thought of putting that into words like that before that's so true. Like design by committee by seven excellent designers is still not so good is it? Yeah was that your theory Paul by the way you said you had a theory about that did you did you get to fire that off is that what you were talking about?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah so it was kind of uh the uh what was I talking about ages ago yeah so the the I think it's the it's just that bucketing the UX designer bucket isn't it and people not quite knowing what UX design entails and the it's complex you know kind of like you know and especially if you're working in a complex systems uh listen to our previous episode for the for that um you know and it especially if you're uh you know the time then to to get from talking to your customers to getting something out of the door is gonna be a lot longer and it's not the same as uh you know saying oh let's build something and getting a team of developers to build something because that that's a different skill set that's a different ask uh you know and if you're asking UX designer to go talk to customers find out what they want but hey we're gonna just build something anyway uh we've got dev teams ready um you know and then kind of halfway through come back with your findings i that's that's not uh you know UX that's a part of UX it's not design is it no and that's kind of taking it out you know and then kind of that one person's got to catch up and you know they'll be working all hours to kind of like get to where the devs are and then that one person then is arguing with all the devs and thinking you know those past three months you've been working on they've been speaking to the users uh and uh this is it they go up and do that and then they're like well it we've made a clear case that that's not the way to do it and like well we've done the work now yeah we don't have scope to change it it'll have to happen in a future iteration the future iteration by the way we're starting now so if you can go and do the design work for that next iteration uh we'll see you in a month's time yeah yeah this process will start over again yeah I'm just gonna drop the giant turd that there's probably a whole episode in itself called MVP that's on the list that yeah yeah and I think that that phrase in itself is problematic I think like job titles though that's come to mean something else than what was in initially intended which happens a lot in in in places like this they grab hold of a term like like agile like the amount the amount of times I've heard the term agile and I think people confuse agile with a capital A with agile with a a small A don't they because you know there's the work there's the process of agile um which people follow and then there's the idea of just being nimble and being able to react to things but no one understands what that means anymore.

SPEAKER_06:

Similarly with what was the term we were talking about before MVP.

SPEAKER_02:

MVP yeah sorry yeah so that's that that that's just like fucking get this out now yeah um and we'll and we'll change it later which they never do well there's there's there's other terms coming around now isn't it um isn't it isn't it there's there's minimum viable product sure yep in I think our previous episode or the episode before we mentioned buns which is bur well what was it burly baps that was it early acceptable product or something like that and then there was this minimum delightful product minimum lovable product just becoming this buzzword bingo about you know what is still fundamentally doing and sometimes that can that can form a a constructive part of a process if you're using that MVP strategy as a way of getting quick feedback and getting a quick release cycle and quickly integrating yeah yeah exactly yeah but very often your MVP uh your MVP just becomes your P.

SPEAKER_06:

It does it does yeah that's again that's another soundbite that's so good. Like that yeah you yeah yeah I'm not gonna repeat what you said that was perfect.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah it's nicely bracketed between turd and P. Yeah an acronym for puke now and we've got on that yeah we've got every every kind of fluid as well that if you if you've got a minimum lovable product or kind of you know if you've got a minimum viable product you know you probably don't need to do loads more dev work on it because you've got a product uh and it's gonna like you know you don't see uh toy manufacturers go oh let's put out Barbie there and let's sell there yeah and yeah we'll do the yeah yeah we'll we'll have a bold one which I think you know there are some bold ones now for kind of yeah but that was a fully realized product before it yeah that was an inclusivity consideration not not a bug that turned out to be a feature which is what I think holds together most MVPs. But they didn't put out Barbie with you know no legs did they when they first released it kind of like yeah we'll just add those later but you know you had to get the clothes set DLC yeah we'll it we'll ship them later and that opens up the whole conversation of computer games and DLC and day one patches like those are all MVPs aren't they but it's not the devs it's never the devs going oh this is good enough let's let's release it on the date that we were going to release it on it's uh no it's not always that concept elsewhere yeah responding to other pressures uh business business requirements at the end of the day that that mean that you they're not able to implement a full process of research design development uh and then refinement and and re-implementation and stuff like that it it doesn't become cyclic but um we managed to give people there a sneak preview of our future podcast on a minimum viable products yeah if we deviated so expertly away from that's coming in port maybe we'll do that on the next on the next episode that puts a nice little bow on this episode sets us up for next episode and now it's time for everyone's favourite and by everyone I of course I mean Mark now it's time for UX Tombolar where we randomly pick a product a thing a process or something we do in general life and discuss the user experience of it take out the good the bad and roast it to perfection I am your everyone Nick yeah you're my everything and everything is you that's a song I don't know who it's by oh I don't know it's our UX Tomboler theme tune UX Tombola give that thing a spin when the barrel stops you can reach your appendages that's the first realized rhyming UX Tombol feature I didn't think about it I just went I just went in let the moment take you got out of your own way right okay I'm gonna give the dude our a spin five sounds seamless you're not did you sleep in it last night I began around for a while actually and the winner is we have a Monday Oh yeah sorry I did I had no idea what you meant I've clearly repressed all of those those memories I didn't sleep in the Tom Ballon machine last night no you didn't sleep at all it's right it's right so today we're talking about this is why you tune in and pay all that money today we're talking about taps hey now I I do joke about that but actually taps and UX and usabilities are quite a big subject one of the the best examples isn't it because you start off with yeah yeah and uh Paul does a wonderful presentation on on these as well as oh that presentation Paul was yeah memory I'll take to the grave and I'm glad you added door in because that's a totally different presentation yeah yeah yeah one's one's a UX ones the other's just an X one an XXX one if you will uh but yeah the um taps doorknobs urinals they're the big ones um and something to speak and um taps are probably most like talked about in this because of the cultural differences immediately observable uh in England uh for our international uh viewers especially those who are number one in Macedonia looking at you guys um in England you have a hot tap and a cold tap and then in the rest of the s of the world which is arguably more civilised because of this you have one tap where you're able to blend both hot and cold water which which is becoming I think the normal rear and I think probably is okay I'm actually gonna say these words my favourite tap which which is the the kind where you do it with like your forearm oh yeah you have the chance to yeah it's almost like the surgeon style yeah yeah but I feel like that not only like are you not touching the dirty tap again with your hands which is kind of the point but that feels slightly more inclusive and accessible as well for people who don't have hands and fingers. Totally totally totally agree and I think as well there's um those well taps have got a whole raft of horrible UX uh in them but those those where it's separate really bug me. Where you've got to get the temperature just right or you scald your hands off basically your skin melts off yeah and and and then you have a a sink and you kind of have to fill the the sink with water and kind of just to get it just the right temperature.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh as I have found myself doing turn both on full whack and then very quickly dance between the two with your foreign arms.

SPEAKER_06:

I've I found that like mixing the two in the air I found right if you turn the hot tap on full there's a there's a peak moment in between it being cold and scalding yourself where it's just the right temperature.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah and you can't sing happy birthday twice whilst you're doing that no no no I like I I reckon I probably borderline scald my hand sort of eight out of ten times I wash my hands. Well that I feel is um is a UX problem. That is very much a mean problem. Yeah you should just use cold cold water that's my um well studies have shown now that using cold water to wash your hands is just as effective as warm water.

SPEAKER_03:

Well I'm assuming if you use soap yes I presume soap water just kind of like oh just stick it in this river.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah so uh this is warm shot I've washed the flush the loo I might as well we uh we've finished cleaning out your septic tank Mrs Wilshot I'll just I'll give me I'll give my hands a little rinse under the cold water tap seal there can definitely uh it sounds like uh my children yeah well yeah yeah I know um oh but those those two taps and I think that that came from kind of like because originally kind of like you know you were you were very well off just to have cold water and running water taps yeah in your in your house you know other people would have to go down the pump uh the end of the end of the street and fill up a bucket you know and uh some people still do that now you know kind of like I've got a trough on my street yeah yeah yeah I um regularly fill the septic tank up uh with drinking water like well as long as you don't think you're drinking bottles up with septic water oh right two birds with one stone that's all I say it's fizzy brown water I was um I was staying in Mulvern uh a couple of weeks back yeah with uh a couple of friends and um they have natural mineral springs um coming out of the walls in Mulvern yeah they live in a cave no they're they're not in the house the house isn't like on like a it's it's the bedrock holding it together and the moment the moment there's a slight tremor yeah the 200 gallons of water 200 000 gallons of water we're gonna pour three I don't think 200 would be that many um but yeah they had these and they were like natural taps very cold very very cold the best drinking water you've ever had but they had um installed just a couple of of kind of um I'm not even sure what you call them but pipes to to floor them one way or the other so you could fill your water bottles. So that had a UX of its own trained at plumbing for five years well Mark Steele taught me everything you know he's a tradesman you know he's plumbed all these old houses um funnily enough uh the Mulvern authorities are actually um are pursuing Mark Steele because he's just scrapped a load of um of of pipes to to the natural springs there and is calling it plumbing um but anyway the UX of that was an entirely different experience because never have I seen so many lines of people with just empty bottles um to grudgingly stand there blocking the way for everyone else whilst they filled 2000 gallons of of water.

SPEAKER_06:

It's like in assorted bottles the fountain in the office in it where you're just waiting to get a little plastic cup full and there's someone there with like the nine litres a day and I have to fill it up here for the next 20 minutes. I reckon I reckon we're doing a bit of a disservice to this because I reckon it is like a massive accessibility concern in it. And like it's defin it's definitely one of the things that like able bodied people tech for take for profit like on a daily basis.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah I do I do even even when it's quite accessible and I don't get this they kind of have um and I think the ondale centre I'm gonna pick on you is is right for this. They have like nice uh infrared sensors so if you break the infrared uh the problem is though it's a really nice idea but they've put the the the depth of the sink is so far away that if you're a small child or in a wheelchair trying to get anywhere near that infrared sensor is is pretty hard to do. So if you can't get anywhere near that you've kind of got to put a stick or something to wave in front or block it off or something. Or ask someone to set it off for yeah and ask somebody to set it off for you and then if if lots and lots of people have used that same tap before you the tap water is fucking hot. Yeah yeah it just does its own temperature as well doesn't it yeah and it's so hot that you kind of think like I am not going to wash my hands for longer than one second because it's too hot and then that's your happy birthday twice totally out the window and then you know kind of people are going around going like dirty protests around the ondale centre I presume if they can't reach the tap they can't reach the soap then either.

SPEAKER_02:

No exactly yeah so there's then the soap is even further away but they had exactly the same design in Manchester Airport Terminal 2 toilets which is the most recent development which means they've learned fucking nothing we do do a UX Tom roller on airports in one of our previous episodes for interested listeners. But yeah they had exactly the same setup where you had um you had the tap you had the soap you had the dryer all within they were all a bit too close Together. You put your hand in at one special angle, uh Matron, and you uh set all three off at once, and that's with everything. Um but yeah, these were set really far back. Uh there was a perfectly able-bodied gentleman um who just couldn't get the tap to work, um, and I had to show him how to do it. Which, you know, it just shouldn't have to your your bathroom shouldn't have to come with an instruction manual, regardless of your ability level.

SPEAKER_06:

My favourite thing are the taps that are so shaped that they're it they're impossible to turn with a wet hand. Oh yeah, you've you've completely misunderstood the brief there, haven't you? Whoever designed that tap. Like the number one thing that you are guaranteed to be doing is touching that with a wet hand. And that you've and it's impossible to turn off.

SPEAKER_02:

So tiny little fins on this otherwise perfectly smooth.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Umbbly. I think it was my grandma's house.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

And it was a kitchen tap, and she had like smooth plastic things that you had to like dry before you wanted to turn off. Yeah. Um push buttons as well, haven't you? On taps. Oh, that's the ones that last I literally was using one of those last week. And the time it so I you hit the top of it, and the time it took me to get my hand from the top of it to the underneath of the tap, the water stopped. Yeah. It was like some awful fucking Tom and Jerry cartoon, like outsmart the water.

SPEAKER_04:

Like seeing your own reflection or something. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

You're lucky enough to use two hands. You could press it down with one hand and then you should.

SPEAKER_02:

That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_06:

Genuinely, why didn't I think about that?

SPEAKER_02:

That's user error, though, isn't it? That's that's I think how these things are bloody designed. The amount of times I've had to lean on a tap. I'm not a very strong person to start with. Lean on a tap. Button thing. I'm not even sure what you call. And then kind of scoop underneath to to wash one hand, kind of the sound of one hand clapping, whilst uh try and blend a bit of soap.

SPEAKER_06:

But you can't, yeah, you can't rub them together, can you? That's uh that's just reminding me of the whole like you wash your hands in a public toilet, and then you have to go and you grab the handle on the toilet door. Oh god, yes. 500 other dirty people, some of which probably haven't washed their hands at all, have grabbed the top.

SPEAKER_02:

I dare say the majority of which rendering the whole process like pointless.

SPEAKER_06:

I think that's probably why I didn't hold the tap with one hand and wash it with the other, because as soon as you go like that again, you've like dirtied your hand on the back.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah, you've defeated the objective. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And if you ever get like a small child trying to press that tap, same thing, yeah. It's never gonna work, yeah. Kind of like, you know, and if someone is kind of like, well, someone broken their arm, how it lean the whole cast on there.

SPEAKER_06:

Wet it up. Yeah, I mean, if a borderline genius like me can't even figure out how to use that tap and kid's got no chance of it.

SPEAKER_02:

We've got the whole world is fucked.

SPEAKER_06:

Um so we need to figure out some kind of solution that we can then sell to people, Mark.

SPEAKER_02:

Or your special special guest can my special guest, Mark Staler.

SPEAKER_03:

Also, as well, just yeah, kind of on that, those those plunger ones, they because they were invented to save water.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, or to stop flooding as well, don't they?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but what inver invariably happens is the plunger gets stuck in the field just and it just runs for like two 200 years. Yeah. Anyway, yeah, what's the product? We've got I reckon I I like the the elbows or kind of like you know, kind of um reduced mobility taps.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, let's shall we run with the elbow thing?

SPEAKER_03:

Um I think as well, I'd be tempted to put rubber on those as well. So because you were saying that you can grip grandma's hand or something.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, but if you do what if it was like a texture, some sort of texture.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, a silicon cover with texture on texture taps.

SPEAKER_02:

Texture taps. Texture taps for your elbows.

SPEAKER_04:

Elbow taps.

SPEAKER_02:

Elbow taps. I I I reckon we should introduce some kind of temperature regulation.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Um so they need to be what's the uh word for like what's a good word for like medium temperature uh tepid. Tepid texture taps. Tepid texture taps.

SPEAKER_03:

Can we do smart taps as well? And I don't know why nobody's invented a smart tap that doesn't link with your toilet. So as soon as you press the button and that flush is done, the tap turns on, touch in and the door locks, and to unlock the door, you've got to wash it out.

SPEAKER_06:

Oh yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh there's uh and there's no manual overrides.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah, come in. That's that's amazing. Oh, let's let's go with that. That's amazing. So tap tap trap, tap trap, that's what it is. So you flush, you flush the toilet, it locks it locks in in flushing the toilet, it locks the door, turns the tap on, and then and then once you've turned the tap once you've used the soap and turned the tap off, the door unlocks. And you can only you can only get out if you touch a cent no, because that don't work. I was gonna say you can only get out if you touch the sensor with a wet hand, but that's you can only get out.

SPEAKER_02:

That's undoing everything.

SPEAKER_03:

You just if you sing happy birthday twice. You only get out. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06:

I mean, yeah, in a public in a public toilet, that's gonna be an absolute fucking chaos, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh also, this is for public spaces as well.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh my god, you scared the shit out of me then.

SPEAKER_02:

You're terrifying demon child. That was great disappeared on the screen, Paul. Creepy AF Right, so tap tap traps. Tap traps. Right, okay, let me just get into character. Glasses, class, arcade machines.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. Um, I'm Mark Steele with another venture for you today that will revolutionise our U Piss.

SPEAKER_02:

You can now wash your I feel like uh first of all, you need to unmute yourselves because I sound like a maniac when you two are laughing off screen.

SPEAKER_05:

No, you can't. It's because all you beat to hear is me laughing. You need to we can we can reduce the gain on that.

SPEAKER_06:

Anyone who joins Patreon can watch the video version of this episode and you can see and yeah, the cognitive dissidents won't be fighting. Yeah, well, okay. It's only a pound, Mark.

SPEAKER_01:

That's fair enough. That's fair enough. And a pound is an opportunity to Mark Steeler. Right, take it from the top because I'll hello. I'm Mark Steeler with a brand new venture today that will revolutionise the way you piss. So once you finish your your what's it and you need to wash your hands, you can use our tap traps today to revolutionize. Once you flush your doozy away, you will be locked in your room for the foreseeable until you moist your moisturize wet your hands. Wet your hands, wash your hands, and then do some complicated puzzle winner yet to devise around happy birthday to get set free. If you don't do that, then the water won't shut off. So about two weeks later, your drone corpse will be found as the Dorim Plods all over the Andale Center. Good day. That's Tap Taps at Bolton Market. Love you. Bye.

SPEAKER_05:

It turns from like a great UX solution to like an episode of Saw. Final destination taps.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06:

The little thing wheels in behind you and is like, would you like to play a game?

SPEAKER_03:

I like how you slipped in moisturized in your hands.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I I just thought I didn't think moisten. That was the word I was moist for. Mark Steeler was looking for.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh my god, why should I cry?

SPEAKER_02:

Just the constant sinister solitude of Mark Steele whilst you two look like you're dying off on camera.

SPEAKER_05:

Dropping out a shot every time he's doing it.

SPEAKER_03:

I think we just starting all of these pro all of these products into super products. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh, that's inevitable. Yeah. At the end of the year, we'll release like a JML booklet that you can with like all the adverts in it that you can get on Patreon.

SPEAKER_01:

The Mark Steeler annual. Perfect. So Christmas in July.

SPEAKER_06:

Audio to ensure disappointment.

SPEAKER_04:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06:

Right, that's I think I think we've got it on a high there. I think we wrap it up. I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_03:

Absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_02:

I started getting nervous before I do them now because I have no idea what Mark Steele's gonna say.

SPEAKER_06:

I I did a little bit with the songs, but I found today you just launched you've just got to launch into it, aren't you? You have, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. No, no one's listed anyway. So no, that's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_03:

The whole of you.

SPEAKER_06:

Yeah. Well, they were until you butchered the nation's name.

SPEAKER_02:

Macedonia, we love you. Yes. Number one design podcast. Macedonia. Macedonia. Yeah, I believe so. Excellent wine as well in Macedonia. Right. I think it's time for the traditional house. Yeah. See you next time.

SPEAKER_03:

That's another episode in the bag. Thanks for listening. Don't forget you can sign up to our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash fasterhorses for an exclusive extended version of this episode, as well as bonus content each month, and other perks are detailed on the site. Don't forget to subscribe on your preferred streaming service and follow us on Twitter at fasterhorses. Catch you in a couple of weeks for another episode, and we'll see you soon!

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Paul Wilshaw

Host