Floating Belly Up | Design by Committee

Who's shouting the loudest and whose voice carries the most weight?

Make it pop, add some design magic, can we do something cool – heard these phrases when you've done a design? We're here to help.

In this episode, we talk about our experiences with design by committee. What is it, how do you quell those loud opinionated voices?

It's difficult, right?

We're joined by special guest @jamesmedd to help us make sense of it all.

We'll help you to navigate the potential pitfalls of design by committee and what you can do to avoid it in the first place.

Also, in UX Tombola, we're discussing the user experience of analog clocks.

Watch this episode here: https://youtu.be/NT3SwikUPaY

Every minute is a quote, here's the clock @jamesmedd is referencing, https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1195310640/author-clock-a-novel-way-to-tell-time?ref=android_project_share

Sound effects from https://www.zapsplat.com

Title music: James Medd
Produced by:
Paul Wilshaw
Nick Tomlinson
Mark Sutcliffe
James Medd
Anthony Jones
Chris Sutcliffe

Transcript

00:00.00 | faster_horses | What? but but but but but be I am recorded now I was kind of waiting for James to come back from the toilet but ah bla but up. Ah.
00:00.00 | Nick | That that would have been no that have been great as the intro to the just put just well just great. Yeah, bad bad the bar bad bad that.
00:00.00 | Mark | As a text tour then didn't you I a bad day. But.
00:14.16 | Nick | Tap but that but that tap.
00:16.57 | Mark | You can't used to be organic that was not an organic de bad with that and this ah this episode of faster horses is brought to you.
00:18.36 | faster_horses | Ah, no, but but but.
00:22.58 | Nick | Tower that but.
00:33.92 | Mark | By Benland Ben are the flowerpot man up.
00:34.31 | faster_horses | Ah, that's every episode. So ah god I'm surprised and that's that's a reference you'd reference Mark like.
00:47.40 | Mark | I used to watch ah bill and then the flower popped men quite a lot when I was ah a little baby. Yeah I think I caught the latter end. They actually redid it recently I say recently past 10 years I've done oh oh my door was just shut.
00:51.45 | Nick | I'm just going through pi.
00:51.46 | faster_horses | Um, nice. Yeah, oh oh oh.
00:59.63 | Nick | That 1
01:06.37 | Mark | I'm speaking too loudly I'm too enthusiastic for Nick in the next room um yeah I think he's gone to with as well. But ah yeah, um, other other greats include Rosie and jim yeah yeah.
01:06.73 | faster_horses | Okay, yeah, ah.
01:17.23 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, on the old brag doll.
01:25.66 | Mark | Um, I'm trying to think of similar ones to that that I watched.
01:26.18 | faster_horses | What was Rosie and jim suck my cheek was that or what was thought was that that that was a yeah anyway Charlie chalk.
01:33.18 | Mark | Um, and I don't know.
01:39.20 | Mark | Did you ever watch Charlie chalk. Yeah, it was 1 of my favorites actually as she used to find it absolutely hilarious which you know probably paints a good image as to why I'm such a fucking psychopath now.
01:43.50 | faster_horses | God that was horrifying.
01:48.70 | faster_horses | Um, ah.
01:54.84 | faster_horses | Ah, oh Bob you got jones oh I know he's got another beer. He can't hear us. Yeah, have you got some supplies Ben better. Not be that.
01:58.22 | Mark | Help. Yeah, so 1 ne's getting settled. No off you got dear? Yeah now do that's it is just got.
02:07.47 | James | So I've brought some snacks.
02:12.59 | faster_horses | Bloody Hard dutch cheese.
02:14.68 | James | Um, you know what? you know I nady bro.
02:17.70 | faster_horses | Um.
02:18.20 | Mark | Ah, butch's knife and some hard trees just go. Ah, it's gonna lob it into the air and just start striking anybody dad about it.
02:24.68 | James | Um, I mean I did nearly bring some cheese and we cheese knife with me but I just brought.
02:28.20 | faster_horses | Um, ah my god.
02:30.99 | Mark | Um, but a fuck it out right? are going you.
02:31.59 | Nick | Ah.
02:36.82 | faster_horses | Are.
02:37.80 | Nick | Um.
02:43.59 | Nick | Ah, your microphone is muted.
02:44.12 | faster_horses | Ah God ah.
02:48.22 | Mark | Yo you fucking allmo. Ah Jesus Jesus Christ You show you do.
02:52.64 | Nick | Um, don't put that in book it else.
02:53.85 | faster_horses | But yeah, yeah, we're we're replacing. We're going to replace those radio crackles and that's the new little. Um.
02:59.73 | James | And.
03:05.98 | Mark | Yeah, with that you sure you don't just fucking shit to yourself. But ah.
03:10.51 | Nick | Ah I might have done by that half time of check I don't want to delay this podcast anymore right? So ah, design by commit.
03:13.18 | faster_horses | Ah God so.
03:25.20 | Mark | That's today's ever sod. Yeah so cue the welcome tune.
03:27.69 | Nick | Boom But du Bu Ah, but but up, but but up by fast. The horse is.
03:33.48 | Mark | Play effects bob coming 1 yeah.
03:37.37 | faster_horses | I Always wonder if there's something more so that there's just kind of like I want more I want more? Yeah yeah.
03:40.41 | Nick | Um.
03:43.97 | Mark | Um, yeah, that's that's saying you know a good jingle though. That's how you know a good jingle? Yeah yeah, yes, yes, are as is more accurate to sweet release.
03:46.13 | Nick | Um, now that's yeah, yeah, it leaves you wanting more and also this and also the sweet release of death in equal measure.
03:59.52 | faster_horses | Oh God Ah the ah does anything sweet of he hurts her ah can like.
04:02.27 | Mark | Of Nicks spells. Yeah yes, ah Cry I was not.
04:03.60 | Nick | Which you know effectively the same thing now. It's very very umami. Ah.
04:19.76 | Mark | Ah, with much more comfortable when talking about like just blood and gore and not what not prior to this podcast. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, this is.
04:19.95 | faster_horses | Um, well yeah, this explains why you shut the door on you worth a mark. Ah.
04:22.39 | Nick | Um, yeah.
04:35.90 | Mark | This is interesting actually our our patreon viewers will be able to see in the recorded version where we usually store the Tom bowler machine. Um, which is in the room. Yeah, but I've had to move it aside to make space for um, other things.
04:40.80 | faster_horses | Um, um.
04:43.70 | Nick | Ah, yeah, max in his little tomboo look tombour ah broom Covered. It brings. Yeah, he brings the paintings with him to make him feel more at home and also as we constantly forget this is for most people an audio format. So.
04:54.23 | Mark | I Guess Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is it. This is it.
05:05.39 | faster_horses | Yeah, is yeah, he's on mute opening a bowl of beer there we yeah ah yeah e.
05:06.90 | Nick | James med is here this week say hello james.
05:07.80 | Mark | Um, it is. We've got special guest Jamess Met once again there he is there is E Authority Bother Um, for those and.
05:12.35 | James | A ah just like the funds on I walking in like that.
05:14.50 | Nick | Um, ah. Here.
05:23.78 | Mark | Because for those viewers who've recently started listening james me has been with us on a couple of our previous podcasts the names of which all completely escape me so I'm afraid I can't help more than that. Yes, oh yes, we did. Yeah that was excellent.
05:24.83 | faster_horses | But.
05:35.90 | James | I did 1 on software which was a great episode I'm told um I also wrote wrote performed the theme tune to faster hold so often forgotten.
05:43.12 | Mark | Enough? Yeah yeah.
05:44.62 | Nick | And.
05:48.73 | Mark | He did he did yes so james james med has is well it' so right? Not a week thing is we can't we can't throw off our money in the air because it hurts as all the pennies staff.
05:50.56 | Nick | Um, oh yeah.
05:54.96 | James | Don't get any royalties on that do I I see that I see that patreon money rolling in every month and I'm like oh where's my 1 penny.
05:56.92 | Nick | Yeah, literally me.
06:08.63 | Mark | Get off our head. Um yes, ah welcome to the show germs. So today's today's episode is on design by committee. No.
06:11.55 | faster_horses | You know.
06:12.91 | James | Thanks for having me I'm happy to be here.
06:18.87 | faster_horses | Or.
06:23.68 | Mark | Are four of us here today and I think we should strategize how we work our way through this podcast in a roundtable format each contributing their own design but feel free to chip in at any point with your opinion on 1 Another's strategies all right.
06:35.54 | faster_horses | Cool. Nice. Can we.
06:37.41 | James | And I've heard I've heard that's how that's I think that's how the best on the best products made when everybody gets to put their stamp on it.
06:37.81 | Nick | That sounds I hate that let's all just lets I'll just shout at once.
06:40.87 | Mark | Um.
06:46.45 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, yeah when and and yeah when everybody's opinion is made their way through into the product I think those are definitely the best products you ever use 1 hundred percent.
06:48.27 | Mark | Yeah, that's it and that's the hallmark.
07:02.20 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, everyone needs equal representation. Whether their ideas are good or not.
07:02.76 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah, and don't forget Ah, my sister has a cleaner whose daughter-in-law has been to design school. So.
07:05.66 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
07:17.25 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah, yeah.
07:19.51 | Mark | Can we have that opinion in there as well. Please.
07:20.59 | Nick | Ah, my yeah I add a goldfish when I was ah when I was 13 I won it ah a fair and every every year and the fair used to come to town to the eureka car park. Um, and it set up that set up all the rides and the stalls there.
07:32.23 | Mark | Um.
07:40.24 | Nick | Um, and 1 of my favorite stalls year on year was the where you throw the bean bags at the cans that you stack up and if you knock all the cans off the the shelf. Yeah, you win a prize more often than not that prize would be a goldfish 1 year won a goldfish and that took home.
07:47.40 | faster_horses | Ah.
07:59.34 | Nick | And named him sonny and he was my he was a dear friend to me for many many years. Um I used we used to play together used to have baths together and um, 1 day I came into my bedroom after spending the day at school where we'd been learning um about the works of Samuel keats.
07:59.36 | Mark | Are.
08:05.73 | faster_horses | Are.
08:08.67 | Mark | Assessment.
08:18.81 | Nick | I'm I'm sure you've I'm sure you've heard of Samuel keats and his wonderful spell binding poetry. But um, ah I came home to find um in in my bedroom where I had many posters and vinyl records that saw me through my youth that sunny the fish had died and he was it was there.
08:19.79 | Mark | Um, is that what? um.
08:31.98 | faster_horses | Um.
08:33.71 | Mark | Um, not dare move are.
08:37.71 | Nick | Floating belly up in the water of the bowl. Um that I I kept him in in my bedroom and it's it's for that reason now I'd no longer like the orange that you've used in the logo.
08:45.36 | faster_horses | Are.
08:47.15 | Mark | Um, excellent, all right? So that was an excellent podcast. Thank you everyone for joining us today. Yeah.
08:49.34 | James | But bold drunk drum kit button come on Rim shop.
09:02.88 | Nick | ah yeah ah twenty seconds has passed.
09:03.84 | faster_horses | God and I couldn't do and I can yeah I I can't wait um pray it.
09:06.71 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, um oh dear, a that way that so.
09:15.91 | James | My my favorite 1 My favorite 1 Um, as we as we do in these nonsensical design by committee miss puns is when when I've spoken to.
09:21.46 | Nick | Um.
09:35.65 | James | 24 people for at least an hour to each about why they enjoy? Well what they do in their daily lives using a product that we're in the're developing what works what doesn't work the challenges they've faced.
09:38.33 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah.
09:54.43 | James | The like ingenuity they've they've employed to work around it and I've I've processed all of those findings and I've ah turned them into a set of actionable insights that we could actually proceed with as ah as a product roadmap. You know a true user-centered product roadmap. And I speak to the Chief internal stakeholder and get told I just don't think it'll work. Um, ah, and of course um, what do I know? Um, yes.
10:15.65 | faster_horses | Ah. Yeah, yeah, that.
10:24.69 | Nick | You only on the payroll as a Ux designer. So so I guess this is probably a good point to just jump in and explain to anyone who's listening like what what is designed by Committee and and what we mean by it.
10:27.30 | Mark | No yeah.
10:36.38 | Mark | Can I Just stop me that as sorry to anyone who's listening not to our listeners but a who's listing on the off chance. Someone's bothed.
10:39.57 | faster_horses | Who had.
10:43.16 | Nick | Yeah, if I if I'm listening to this ux episode you podcast episode back in the kitchen as I'm doing the washing up as I tend to do and Drew's in the other room and she's got no choice but to overhear it.
10:54.43 | Mark | Um, okay, right? Yes, see so so um, so listeners and parenthetical individuals is what what? what? what you meant.
11:01.72 | Nick | Any.
11:05.50 | James | Dr. Drew Why have you bought these noise canceling headphons about our house is so quiet.
11:07.39 | faster_horses | And.
11:11.61 | Nick | Are.
11:12.86 | Mark | Um, anywhere just start ah bring attention to that do go on explaining design by Committee all right? Okay, okay, who wants to jump in then with they.
11:19.74 | Nick | I wasn't gonna do that. Oh this is like the opposite of design by committee in it. This is like negligence by committee.
11:24.42 | faster_horses | Aha yeah.
11:30.10 | Mark | Yeah, ah I'm sorry I wasn't expected to present today and you'll have to move on to the next person.
11:34.18 | faster_horses | I ah this is yeah design by committee it's um I every this is this is 1 of the problems with design and I think um, it's it's a a tricky balance for anybody to get and I think.
11:35.81 | Nick | Ah, paul.
11:52.89 | faster_horses | As a designer. It's It's partly heartbreaking when you kind of like have design by Committee and part experience. Um, and it. Ah yeah, and the you kind of like as a designer you put yourself out there all the time and there's no. Pop from kind of like acting or things like that or kind of like where you're in front of people. There's no other time you'll get critiqued or cript. Well not critictiqued criticized more than than being a designer because everybody knows like.
12:26.50 | Nick | Um, yeah.
12:31.56 | faster_horses | As you said like oh the the color orange. It's kind of an association for me or kind of like oh I had this toy in the eighty s and I loved it so much or my friends wanted to play with it. Can we put this rubber button onto the website because I loved that. Um.
12:44.90 | Nick | So thickly.
12:46.52 | Mark | Have.
12:49.46 | faster_horses | You know and people have this really emotional bias to design among anything else and even over can like copy your kind of like um, you know at anything and like people get people judge you on those things I think um, there's a. A website and I think people rate Tesco meal deals and you post your meal deal combination onto this website and people rate you on that and generally if you're vegetarian or vegan your ratings are usually lower than the but kind of like if you had a. Fille of steak sandwich with a snickers and cheese and onion crisps and a coke which I probably get a higher rate say because that's that's your that's your audience you know, kind of like and and and that's the audience kind of let you go for can like and it's and it's weird and like.
13:29.73 | Mark | Um, yeah.
13:36.27 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah I was gonna say.
13:46.65 | faster_horses | Why do people not know can like you know you've got a target audience and a dog and um, you know it can allow what and people put their own personal opinions and their own personal experiences.
13:54.36 | Mark | Um, yeah I.
14:06.41 | faster_horses | Into kind of like there were motions kind of when they interpret design. Ah, um.
14:12.39 | Mark | I think you're absolutely spot on there and it's that input of um, emotional Bias cognitive bias any kind of preconceptions you have. But I think what? what's unique about design by art and I'd say even particular user experience. Design. Ah, in fact, I've said it on this podcast before not everyone's a user experience designer and I think everyone had agreed to that. Everyone's a user of some form in some way and this with this comes an automatic certainly with a certain kind of individual a sense of understanding. As if just because you're eating the sausage. You know how it's been made um to break out an old and old favorite analogy of ours. Um, and so yeah, it it boils down to this this idea that while I've experienced this. Not not not an acknowledgement that they've only experienced 1 side of it. But and as such because it's visual because it's interactive and I've got an opinion not to mention all these other biases I can lend a hand so even even in those cases it can be well intentioned but that is usually not a result.
15:22.48 | faster_horses | You? Yeah yeah.
15:26.50 | Nick | Is there actually like an agreed-up upon sort of textbook definition of design by kmer.
15:31.53 | faster_horses | The problem. Ah I think a yeah, a good example of design by committee is it's quite often. You get can like oh this wouldn't work for this 1 customer or this wouldn't work for um.
15:32.11 | Mark | Um, and I don't know I'll look it up by oh hook jump now. Um.
15:50.41 | faster_horses | Somebody and you get then kind of like you get pissing contests and kind of like who's shouting the loudest and whose voice carries the most weight and you get like you know when you're doing designed. You get kind of like these comments thrown at the designs say like I know that the.
15:56.66 | Nick | Yeah.
16:10.41 | faster_horses | I know the ceo wouldn't like that or they get that I know kind of like you know 1 of your senior stakeholders wouldn't like that um that they just wouldn't like that without even asking them is is kind of like would yeah and.
16:12.85 | Nick | Um, yeah.
16:13.14 | Mark | Um, yeah.
16:25.87 | Nick | Offer further clarifying or proving the statement either. It's just opinion.
16:30.30 | faster_horses | And yeah and it's an opinion. But but with no context and to back that up and kind of like why would they not like it is it The wrong color is it because I've accidentally drawn a penis instead of a light bulb. Oh you know I kind I Um, you know.
16:43.49 | Mark | Not a getting ball. Ah.
16:45.51 | Nick | Accidentally.
16:48.41 | faster_horses | It is kind of like what is the reason they wouldn't like it is better than just somebody going like the Ceo wouldn't like it and you know and it's kind of like and you hear it all the time and kind of like it just annoys me.
16:59.57 | Mark | Um, yeah.
17:05.25 | James | Please.
17:06.52 | Nick | The the irony of calling it designed by Committee is the that's not design. Yeah.
17:10.93 | faster_horses | It It isn't the tub isn't.
17:12.39 | Mark | At all. It's it's in fact, it's very rare even democracy. It's just yeah, the implication that the insinuation rather is that you have so many people and they can democratically approach this project. So I was reading and.
17:26.65 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
17:30.65 | Mark | Ah, that never happens I just typed into google and wikipedia has um because it's a recognized term as it's all an article on it and it just starts and there's some 2 points here that 1 to raise so it.
17:39.80 | Nick | In interesting and meta that you read in a Wikipedia article about design by committee.
17:45.20 | Mark | Designed by a committee. Yeah yeah, which is probably the most referenced thing when justifying an opinion within a design committee. Um, so by everyone. Yeah.
17:53.49 | Nick | Well notes are wicked though in it. So it's contributed to by lots of lots of different people here. Sorry go on.
18:01.50 | Mark | Um, so design by committee is a pejorative term shall I read this out in a better way design by committee is a pejorative term for a project that has many designers involved but no unifying plan or vision and it's those 2 points that I really wanted to focus on there.
18:05.20 | Nick | In the voice.
18:21.45 | Mark | Vision and plan and because I think a lot of design. But what underpins Well or yeah, what underpins a difference between a committee of designers a group of designers and designing by Committee is fundamentally the process you have in place. Are the processes you have in employers and then the unifying vision that those processes facilitate and I think if you don't have those 2 things clear then what you create is just an environment where everyone's opinion is isn't guardrailed isn't ciphered down the right. Channels and it just becomes ah an open forum.
19:00.36 | James | There's um, again, we used to play when I was art school which was everybody's probably played at some point the exquisite corpse where you fold a piece of paper into how we even.
19:10.61 | Nick | Um, ah yeah, yeah, now me neither the.
19:12.20 | Mark | I Never I've played it I never knew it as the exquisite corpsb kind of victorian schoolhouse. Did you go to.
19:14.87 | faster_horses | No yes.
19:16.73 | James | Yeah, um, but for those for those who don't know it's the game where you fold a piece of paper similarly draws the bottom maybe the feet then the legs then the horser than the head and you can. Can divide it up depending on what kind of game you're playing but um, the amount of times I've sent the first draft of something or not even the first draft of something that's getting towards a quote unquote final design and it bounces around and by the time it comes back to me. It unrecognizable. You know the feat that I gave this this creature. It's just morphed into this horrific mutant of ah of a non. It's it's a completely. It's ah it just doesn't represent. What the the foundations were. It's it's just mutated to to the point that it's it's no longer um, recognizable and I think that that is my lived experience so much of doing these kind of projects where the foundations were sound and. And I'm experiencing it right now. So I'm working on a project where we've picked up someone's work that began 2 years ago and the project was abandoned and we're picking up the project as a new supplier and we're trying to find out how they got from their noble intentions to what what we've inherited.
20:40.11 | Mark | Nine.
20:42.97 | James | And I think there is a big amount of this. Um Ah, and it's It's a hierarchical thing isn't it because there are certain people who who have that sway Um, no matter how democratic and agile process is.. There's ultimately somebody who gives it. Approval or Disapproval and I think that is so it's so contrary to the entire methodology of everybody working together and and working with users and everything to get it right that by the time you've just given it to someone else and they say well like that. But more like this fag packet drawing I did 6 months ago.
21:09.18 | faster_horses | Will.
21:21.50 | James | Make what you've done resemble the fag packet and it's just yeah, breaks your heart it really does and you know you've got you've kind of got to rise above it I think so often as ah as a designer but it's um.
21:22.21 | faster_horses | Yeah.
21:32.37 | Nick | Sometimes you don't even get that though dear sometimes you just get no.
21:35.00 | faster_horses | Um, yeah yeah I expected you know to could we do something a bit cooler is another 1 or yeah, can you make it pop. Yeah.
21:36.33 | James | No yeah, oh nothing worse. Not that not what we had in mind. Not what we had in mind.
21:45.25 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
21:48.91 | Mark | Can you make it pop a and for those playing faster horses bingo please raise your car know I've never played Bingo before ah.
21:52.70 | James | Then.
21:53.97 | faster_horses | Um, ah oh yeah, and those that and they're just not helpful. Are they they those messages this come.
21:58.71 | James | Um, a is in genius.
22:03.69 | Nick | 1 on.
22:11.66 | faster_horses | I ah you got you? you mentioned in in the wikipedia quote a democratic um, kind of and I think that that is 1 of the problems with Uxs on it. So if you're in an agile sprint. You were generally the minority on any democratic.
22:16.90 | Mark | Are a.
22:21.80 | Nick | Are.
22:31.18 | faster_horses | Position so you've got kind of like your work cut out in any kind of thing anything there so you know if it goes to a vote and kind of like oh should we put our boxes on the left should we put them on the bri. Your 1 vote out of you know 7 8 people.
22:49.49 | Mark | Is it.
22:50.30 | faster_horses | And then even then you know you've not got the final say of what actually gets developed and what actually gets put into production and that then comes down to somebody who may not have been part of that process and voted on it or may not been.
23:02.46 | Mark | That's that.
23:09.73 | faster_horses | Prevy to any of the nice years of research, you've done and then you you know it's distilled along the process and and while I love agile processes I do feel a lot of weighted against designers and ux people so that. Isn't the majority or and that on that kind of sprint and you get that distilled message and you end up with that frankenstein project The yeah.
23:36.25 | James | You you experience it as well. If you're working in ah in a user centered kind of approach and you're taking feedback if you're if you're overly reactionary to that feedback.
23:50.90 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
23:54.70 | James | Because if if somebody tells you um oh I didn't want the button there. It can so often be well. Don't put the button there put it anywhere else and you move it and then somebody else says I prefer if the button was over here then you move it there.
24:00.85 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
24:10.14 | James | And you've you kind of got to avoid the tendency to just react or every single piece of feedback you receive as well. Um.
24:13.16 | faster_horses | Yeah.
24:14.84 | Mark | yeah yeah yeah I think that's where having again something in place a repository to put this feedback no matter the stakeholder or user or or the mechanism that you receive it so it can be properly digested. Ah. Is what it comes down to because I think if you've got yourself committee of design then you've got to ask yourself. How were those conversations happening in the first place how is someone who realistically certainly doesn't have a stakeholder in this part of the process certainly doesn't have a stakehold in this part of the product. How is it that they're even in the room right now and what is what is the better way of of ah of delivering this information to them we at um, where I am now we had a situation as we were all aware of with the Brand team.
24:52.24 | James | M.
25:11.80 | Mark | Were we weren't able to essentially delineate between well sorry I say we weren't I think the the actual people in the in the brand team and the actual people in the ux team were quite comfortable with where the line between ux and Brand was in this context but then there were certain stakeholders above who. We're very keen to make sure that certain people don't cross certain lines and it it got to such a point where 1 of the teams had to it didn't last very long for obvious reasons send all of their work over to be reviewed regardless of what it was. Regardless of what it was with the intent that Brand could review anything brand related um and it just landed on on someone's desk didn't get reviewed got ignored and then got shipped anyway. So um, it was again how how did that conversation even happen.
26:09.70 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, definitely I took more itll lent about that but perhaps not ah um, but yeah, it is and think that that's.
26:09.26 | Mark | How what was the the fuck up in the process.
26:19.63 | Mark | I.
26:28.22 | faster_horses | Kind of like you know and a lot people to come into design and think I think some people come into design thinking and it's an easy job to do or kind of like you know it's kind of like oh I can draw I'll be drawing all day and England that but there's the so much more to it. It's the whole iceberg.
26:46.88 | Mark | Are.
26:47.80 | faster_horses | Um, and you know you see the the tip of the design but you don't see the user research engine. You don't see all the work that goes beneath the surface to even it is the yeah it is and then people come in and go ah but.
26:58.68 | Nick | Um, but that's that's the design process in it. That's the thing.
27:06.42 | faster_horses | You know that the tip is kind of like not as sharp as I want to do or is not as kind of like blue as I want to do and it's so easy to yeah, you know and it's kind of all things like this and can like well yeah, but that's.
27:11.00 | Mark | Um, here it's got Scott rone corners.
27:22.10 | faster_horses | You know that was the direction you gave us like 16 months ago. But.
27:23.60 | Mark | But I think I think yeah I think the other the other thing that's missing there as well because you mentioned what's below the water level very often when you're you've got a design even the wider user floor is being missed and and the parts of the experience that. Aren't through specific interface components. But instead the Behavior elements so things that are ah you know, stripped back to make things more intuitive. The the people typically who are in when you're designing by committing if you got that happening. Usually they'll take a screenshot or there'll be a screenshot taken. This is what happened more often. Actually a screenshot has been taken not that it's been given It's been taken passed around and then landed back on someone's lap and as you sir.
28:10.45 | Nick | Um, zero context.
28:17.22 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, there's it's removed from context a context of where where that page lands in the product. What part of a flow it belongs to and furthermore um, you know what? what level the design Maturity is what stage the designs that you know.
28:31.13 | faster_horses | I Think I like I liken this to making a sandwich and kind of like you know you, you wouldn't make a sandwich in a dissected Way. You wouldn't say somebody right? Let's make a sandwich and kind of like you give somebody a. The base to make then you wouldn't pass that off to somebody else and make the the middle to fill in and you wouldn't pass that then off to kind of like someone else to put the garnishing on and then you wouldn't pass that off to kind of like make the packaging or kind of like the the sandwich box you end up putting it in and like. You would never. Ah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:10.86 | Mark | Aren't you describing a subway there? Yeah yeah.
29:11.71 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, but there's yeah, but yeah, does it does it. There's a user there along the hold every step of the process.
29:12.91 | James | Yeah, is it design. There isn't there and in Subway there's the design years for customer and I was just yeah.
29:21.90 | Mark | In fact, I heard I don't know how true this is that the individuals who serve you at Subway in fact, called sandwich artists. It's a noble profession.
29:27.73 | faster_horses | But hell there? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:29.48 | Nick | But yeah, but to so to that metaphor Paul The other thing is if someone asked you to to make a sandwich that tell you what they wanted in it as well. Right at the start. Yeah.
29:30.20 | James | Name and.
29:41.64 | faster_horses | Yeah.
29:43.42 | Mark | Um, the brief.
29:45.22 | James | Yeah, yeah.
29:49.20 | Nick | If you if you asked someone asked you to make a sandwich and then you brought them ham with lettuce and crayons. But.
29:57.10 | faster_horses | Ah, um, the favorite savage top in of crayons. Ah.
29:58.15 | James | Where you talked about you, you talked about um henry ford's production line in the last episode and um, the reason the production line works in that way is that the parameters are.
29:58.35 | Mark | And.
30:07.37 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
30:17.48 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
30:17.81 | James | Set and that there isn't variation and that works tremendously. Well for that that application if if if you if you started saying to those people.
30:18.93 | Nick | Yeah.
30:25.49 | Mark | For that 1 model. Yeah.
30:31.51 | James | Yeah, and just see what you think when it gets to you if there's anything you change about what came before um, just you know make a few changes. Um and I don't want to refute I don't want to refuse feedback. But that's not the time to.
30:32.20 | faster_horses | I.
30:35.10 | Nick | This yeah.
30:39.26 | Mark | Um, well that actually comes back.
30:44.62 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
30:46.83 | Mark | Um, yeah, and.
30:47.80 | James | You don't apply that feedback at that point you have you have to have a reasoned methodology to do it? yeah.
30:50.77 | Nick | You do it before it hits the factory floor. Don't you.
30:51.75 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
30:55.72 | Mark | It's well that's it and that's a point that polls made in 1 of our podcasts in the past again can't remember which because completely forgot our entire backpa. Yeah, that's it they all kind of merge into 1 and the end. Um.
31:01.67 | Nick | Um, so many of them now.
31:01.99 | faster_horses | Hello.
31:10.92 | Mark | Like chewing on a sandwich you didn't ask for for too long getting Crayon stuck in your teeth. That's that's a faster horses guarantee and that's not what you said Paul But what you said was that very often you get a production line and when you're talking about the way of products are manufactured you fire it off.
31:13.45 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah.
31:30.74 | Mark | And you don't bring it back in for a second round of iterations and very often. Yeah, yeah to to tweak. So it's to recall it and send it back out again and and it's a good example I think of how the factory line can work for certain things.
31:30.89 | faster_horses | No yeah, you don't put it through a different machine I.
31:49.22 | Mark | But when it comes to software and it's not process enough because what you'll get feedback to come back and you will get the opportunity to ititerate on it so you need more than just an assembly line um to build a product.
32:01.32 | faster_horses | I I Still think the assembly line is a good because you put put those guards in and then kind of like you know if you need to change the factory. You've got to change the factory. Um, you know you get feedback. Yeah exactly. But you know, kind of if you're on that process.
32:13.83 | Nick | And they did do that as well.
32:20.84 | faster_horses | You can't ask to make a yeah muddle T Ford and then at the end of it. Expect a tesla you know you just because like those those parameters have just not been able to kind of like make their way through that factory.
32:30.33 | Mark | Um, yeah.
32:34.62 | Nick | That's 2
32:35.79 | Mark | 8
32:40.58 | faster_horses | So you know if if someone gives you a parater kind of god do this this is the scope you've got to kind of like you know this is and you know going to ah the ux files we've just done ah listen now on Patron so as a.
32:57.50 | Nick | Or or in the future on on halloween.
32:59.41 | faster_horses | Or in the future. Yeah, on that? Yes, um, yeah, and it's that that production line you've got to kind of like say oh that the parameters are set and you can't really change it.
32:59.55 | Mark | Um, and.
33:14.22 | faster_horses | But you can, but then you know you've got to rebuild the factory line. You've got to rebuild that factory process and in that in that way.
33:25.40 | faster_horses | Um, um, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd say it's the internal time where I've got in my head it goes off at goes off at thirteen minutes past 6 Ah.
33:27.11 | Mark | But was everything all right Paul But oh oh I see yeah now I wanted and.
33:42.11 | Nick | Ah, very very particular.
33:44.18 | faster_horses | Hello Yeah, it's so yeah, it's the midpoint of Richard Osman's house of games. That's why.
33:51.90 | Mark | Um, yeah, okay, okay I Hope that's not like some kind of sex thing.
33:57.61 | Nick | To metaphor. Yes, some ah.
34:00.70 | faster_horses | And it's a super c 2 television showed mark anyway, where were we.
34:11.92 | Nick | Um, the yeah, the the idea of not changing stuff mid-flight.
34:20.56 | Mark | Um, well the only concern I have around here is that about this is what we're essentially describing. There is waterfall isn't it in terms of processes and further furthermore um.
34:25.19 | faster_horses | It? Yeah yeah, yeah, well it is and isn't it is and isn't.
34:37.56 | Mark | You What you have The is the construction process basically is a black box to the point where the manager is managing the staff and not so much the process you know the floor manager to my understanding and then the processes themselves are actually probably engineered elsewhere in a different headquarters. And they're being kind of trickled down and you have this black box of production which is ultimately impenetrable. Um, which is fine for building things but doesn't necessarily lend itself to any kind of iterative improvement.
35:16.10 | Nick | Um, yes.
35:17.16 | Mark | Um, well I thought so yeah.
35:20.10 | faster_horses | I Love it I I was just getting distracted by um and the other day um make you made a hilarious comment on Whatsapp about podcats and I was just getting distracted by James Evil Bun villain.
35:21.94 | James | Touch.
35:34.98 | Nick | All right.
35:35.78 | James | Mission.
35:39.54 | faster_horses | Stroke in. Ah.
35:39.79 | Nick | Um, for the.
35:41.92 | James | Yeah, for the audio only listeners of the ah podcast. There is a cat just wandering around my desk.
35:47.56 | Mark | For the only for the audio. Well for the audio only listeners. There's been like 5 seconds of dead space. Just ah.
35:50.82 | Nick | Um, ah earlier.
35:53.76 | faster_horses | Um, ah what's the we. What's the we are.
35:55.29 | James | So.
35:56.44 | Nick | We we'll edit that out. We'll fix that in post. In fact, will we'll take off. We'll take all this sorry Paul polar edit this out in post and this bit and this bit.
36:03.29 | James | And.
36:03.85 | Mark | I.
36:11.31 | James | Um.
36:11.31 | Mark | Um.
36:12.80 | faster_horses | Ah, um.
36:14.30 | Nick | Um, this bit I could just carry on for twelve minutes doing that if you want.
36:17.12 | Mark | Everything is in between.
36:18.37 | faster_horses | Ah, a good point though. Mark and I think um, yeah, and he's that that agile is's I think there's there's a blend between that agile process and putting the godrails on to kind of like protect kind of the design and have it. I think really though it's that vision though isn't it and we spoke about that in a previous episode about having that vision of what actually you're going to end up with and it and you know you could be kind of making a ah jelly and do you really care what color it is. Do you care What shape it is. But you know you want a jelly um in the you know and kind of like there's some basic fund fundamentals isn't there there though you need to kind of say.
36:57.80 | Nick | Well, that's it. It's but it's specifying. Yeah, it's specifying at the Star. What part of the jelly is important. Is it What shape it is is it What color it is is it. The. Ingredients does it need to be some kind of fucked up vegan approximation of a Jill a like but all all these things are easily definable before you before you stay off and not not so easy to change halfway through or at the end of the process.
37:16.16 | Mark | Are.
37:17.71 | faster_horses | Ah, yes, it does it does. But. Yeah, yeah, you can't yeah oh well I'm you know I've kind of like you've revealed the jelly and they go Oh I was actually thinking Victoria Sponge. But.
37:38.81 | Nick | Yeah, other like oh our competitors were making the jelly but it's ah it's dick shaped so we want to own a capitalalize on that new market. That's just been created.
37:38.81 | James | Yeah, that's it it.
37:38.99 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah.
37:44.89 | faster_horses | Are.
37:51.13 | James | But that's that again though isn't it. It's the if people have an idea in their head. They're not focused on problem solving. They're focused on achieving their solution.
37:51.39 | Mark | No yeah, yeah.
38:03.52 | faster_horses | Um, what that was there is.
38:06.58 | Nick | Exactly. Ah.
38:06.77 | Mark | Um, yeah.
38:08.70 | James | What they imagined and um, the individual I mentioned earlier who said I Just don't think it'll work was the same individual who would regularly say that's not what I had in mind or that's not not what we'd originally envisaged and it's like well you've you've start, you've.
38:19.62 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
38:21.39 | Nick | Now.
38:28.33 | James | Dreamt Five steps ahead having an idea of what it is you want and it's never going to match up to your expectations like that because you're always,, you're always battling with everybody's solution and and so solutionizing is is a symptom of um design by Committee because people Say. It should be this. It should be that it's not it. It needs to do this. It needs to fulfill. This need. You know the jelly is an example I want um a sweet cold food that entertains children.
39:05.58 | Mark | Um, then you.
39:06.70 | Nick | Um, yeah ice cream.
39:07.11 | James | Could be jelly could be. It could be 1 of those little punky ice cream things. Do you remember those little um penguin with the ice cream in its head now used to get them at you. You got those in um, like indian restaurants like that those like.
39:10.90 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, it will. Ah.
39:14.22 | Nick | I.
39:15.91 | Mark | What kind of fucking Fever Dream I scream and.
39:22.56 | Nick | Um, you escape on Holiday in like Meocka and.
39:25.59 | Mark | Described. Ah yes, it's a brutalized endangered species as well. Perfect.
39:25.79 | James | As a wholesaler who used to just tell them I think yeah, but it's it's um yeah I think the solutionizing approach is is ah a symptom of of the design by Committee process because.
39:37.67 | faster_horses | Yeah.
39:44.61 | James | People should be feeding back but they're not always the right people are they? That's that's the big issue is that if you're not speaking to the right people and again a project and working on a separate project or have been working on um, not on it anymore but we were speaking to a lot of people. You've had a lot of opinions about what it was. They expected us to deliver and not what their customers were expecting So Our customer customer was the person who wasn't in the room at the time and just they are in the room now and all of a sudden I was respectable in the project is entirely different because we're getting it through the lens of the end user.
40:06.60 | Nick | Yeah.
40:08.50 | faster_horses | Yeah.
40:21.57 | James | And not through the various people who've got an idea of what they want because you take all of their separate opinions and none of it makes sense because none of it's focused on need. It's focused on their ideas of how to meet the need and none of the none of the user need is is present in that that discussion.
40:37.78 | Mark | Who know who is it.
40:38.42 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
40:39.15 | James | Um.
40:39.19 | Nick | I Mean at the sound of I mean sorry at the risk of sounding like a little bit elitist. It's it's it's non-designers getting involved in the design process in it and that's not you know when you're talking about. Users and stuff. Obviously they're not designers but they're an integral part of of what you're creating you talk to the user of what you're designing and their feedback is essential stakeholders. Yeah exactly Yeah um, whereas like stakeholders.
41:04.38 | Mark | They're part of the process aren't they as opposed to the 1 going through the process.
41:11.48 | Nick | Um, and then other considerations like branding and technology and stuff like that they're they're exactly that they they're considerations that you have to have in mind but they're not an equal voice at the table and if they are then I think unfortunately they need to have some kind of. Consideration or knowledge of design and the design process if they want to have a like a seat at the table. Perhaps that's an unpop unpopular opinion I don't know.
41:36.89 | James | I agree. No I agree and I disagree I think that the everybody can be part of the design process I think that's that's got to be your starting point for these things. But.
41:36.89 | Mark | I agree.
41:52.12 | Nick | Yeah, exactly so it has to be a so a specific part of the journey. It can't be like just dropped like a hand grenade into the middle of the design process.
42:00.61 | James | Yeah, a practical level. You know in terms of implementation and um, whether that's visual or experiential or whatever it is that you put in together I think that needs to be so carefully executed.. There's no reason other people can't um, have a seat at the table to to inform that process but the actual actions you know the direct implications in in what you're doing that's that's where it's dangerous. That's where. Oh can you just move this to the bottom of the page. Oh can you just put this up there. Can we just do this. You know that's where the cracks then show because you've you've you've yeah yeah that that's where you've cut out the um, the real kind of user-driven approach because all of a sudden. It's but.
42:43.39 | Nick | Sorry, yeah, yeah, that's kind. That's what I was saying really? ah.
42:57.45 | James | Um, that person's opinion and it's not assured in the way that those are the of the decisions were.
43:03.39 | Mark | the the 3 the 3 most dangerous words in the english language. Can we just? oh.
43:08.34 | faster_horses | Ah, oh yeah, good on I I'm going to ask you about wire frames I've got my own opinion about wirerames. But um.
43:09.38 | James | And yeah.
43:09.69 | Nick | Ah, daughter what about? Ah, it's just the way we've always done it.
43:23.84 | Nick | Yeah, meter.
43:26.20 | faster_horses | Y frames I've been around there and I won't get into the details but our wire framemes without getting your opinions First are wireframes a good tool for ux or not and do they help or. Not help with design by committee.
43:46.30 | Mark | Are.
43:48.19 | Nick | Ah I think it depends what you're trying to achieve so I too as people probably have come to expect now have a controversial opinion on wire frames in terms of how the majority or I feel the majority of ux designers might use them and um. Stakeholders might use them I think if you're trying to get something over the line to someone who's quite resistant or has he usually been a bit of a problem then a wire frame is a good way to do that because you roughly approximate something without being too specific. And the fewer specifics. You have the less things those people have to push back against. So for example, color font logo arrangement things like that if that person's a pain in the as and you show them an actual real website and then they're going to start stressing about.
44:33.52 | Mark | Are.
44:42.88 | Nick | Oh That's not the right blue. That's the wrong font. Why have you spelt this. Why does that say Laura Mipsum and not our brand name if you do a wire frame where it's just a box and you're trying to show them that a simple layout. They'll use their imagination and their own biases and whatnot to fill in those spaces. Ah, more often than not just approve it. So if that's what you're after a quick buy-in and an approval and to get something moved further down the line than I think they're very useful but if you're working in a system where you've got a fully formed.
45:10.83 | Mark | Are.
45:18.91 | Nick | Design system and a component library I don't feel. It's like a valuable expenditure of time to create a a wire frame when you've just got the components there to drop into like and effectively a wire frame anywhere. Um, it doesn't have to necessarily be like interactive but you can use if you've got a pre. Fabricated like banner or you know a ah form or something like that and you just drop it in and it is the right color and it does have the right fonts and stuff in why? Why? not just do that I don't know.
45:48.93 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah.
45:49.43 | James | What I mean if you've you know what we're doing at the moment designing government services things that will end up on dot gov dot uk um, you've got the assurance that all of those individual elements have all passed.
46:04.83 | Nick | Um, death.
46:05.87 | faster_horses | Um, death.
46:07.47 | James | past in the past you know they've all been their own and and it sounds really I know we've talked about this before nick that someone you spoke to said if we if we did everything like this everything had looked like golf dot uk and I think that's a's a gross over oversimplification. But.
46:21.10 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
46:22.33 | Nick | Yeah.
46:25.21 | James | That's like the function of design at the end of the day if something functions really well and there's there's you know gets out of the way and and the problem is solved more quickly I don't I don't need a controversial design decision and I don't need you know. Reams of someone's artist's expression you know or fulfilling. Someone's fantasy of the way a service will look or function because that's not the way good design works anyway, you know I'd I'd rather have a house full of um.
46:45.82 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
46:56.48 | Nick | Um, yeah.
47:03.77 | James | Nondescript boxes with just the knobs on the top that do the things I need to do than somebody's expressive crap that you know doesn't do all those things as well. Um, it's but it looks well. Yeah.
47:16.30 | Nick | But looks nice.
47:16.97 | faster_horses | I Yeah and the the reason I talk about wifriends are bring Wi framemes up because then I think they are from fundamental to design by Committee and I think where kind of like I think.
47:17.73 | Mark | And.
47:34.47 | faster_horses | Ux kind of borders on this kind of um, you know ten years ago ux people were just doing yframes and that that was in their job reing and then you'd have somebody else doing the ui and my problem with yframes is you give a yframe to somebody.
47:48.59 | Nick | Yeah.
47:54.70 | faster_horses | And exactly like you say they fill in the blanks then and they fill in the colors they fill in the fonts they fill in the text and stuff like that while that is some way you know productive if it's also counter to productive to. If you were designing another page on a website that needs to have some continuity with the 1 you designed last week and then somebody else comes along and goes oh I'm going to color that in with my orange crayon just to piss nick off because his goldfish died. So.
48:24.85 | Nick | Um, yeah, take take it out of this Hundred is um.
48:26.33 | Mark | Fifteen sixty.
48:30.68 | faster_horses | So um, you know and and that is my problem with wifi and also I think as well as designers and as we use a tool to do wirerames we try and make wireframes super pretty and line up and all fit into the nice Boxes. So the time you spent doing a wi-frying is almost at exactly the same time as doing the design. So why not just do the design and then people you know, bring people on the journey and.
48:58.67 | Nick | Um, yeah, exactly just do this is on it.
49:02.14 | Mark | Um, I think I think it's for me that the wire frameme question and I think this is a good example. It's the right tool for the right job or in this case, the wrong tool for this job in question because.
49:05.79 | Nick | Um, yeah.
49:19.60 | Mark | Wireframes can be a conversation tool and that's because everyone can make them. Everyone can draw on the back of ah of a you know a napkin. Um, but because everyone can do them Again. It needs to be the right people who understand the right processes and are and at the right time the right touch points. To engage with that. Um, and that's all I Want to say I had a whole cartography I and analogy lined up but the moment's gone. So I'll leave it. Yeah yeah, you mean.
49:42.91 | Nick | Um, ah now go and finish your thought a cartography analogy.
49:45.68 | faster_horses | But oh god oh I feel like I need to hear this now. Mark.
49:57.19 | Mark | Well you I was just thinking you you create. It's the first thing that came to my head when you said wire framing and you create different kinds of maps for different crowns of people and what it depends on the end user if you're going to send someone a ah map of your.
50:02.78 | faster_horses | Yeah.
50:06.43 | Nick | No.
50:14.58 | Mark | Process and you're using the bare minimum cartography line so it looks like a ah geographical height map and you're sending that someone who thinks who's expecting something they can go hiking with. They're not going to.. They're not going to be able. They're just not going to understand they won't be able to use it. They're going to be dissatisfied. And they'll expect something different. Essentially it's the same land. It's the same project. It's the same landscape.. It's just a different demonstration of that same thing and it's intended for a different purpose a different user and a different part of the process. Um. That was what I was going to like yeah that was that.
50:50.86 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
50:51.77 | Nick | I'm so glad that you said that because I really like that like um to to the uninitiated a map is a map but to to a land surveyor a map is completely different to someone who works for the irac and needs to get like down all the airros of Britain that's so good I like that.
50:57.30 | Mark | Are.
51:06.85 | faster_horses | Definitely yeah it month right? I was watching c series 2 and if people see yes if you're not watched it. Ah okay, you go the and then.
51:09.28 | Nick | The.
51:12.91 | Nick | C I've I've not I've not seen a or b yet. So I guess I'll watch those first.
51:14.13 | Mark | Um, ah there we are.
51:22.18 | faster_horses | Wait for it. Ah um, yes, see it's working like the world has gone blind and it's quite is yeah yeah, it's quite interesting and because they were they had an episode where they had these maps and they make the maps out of like.
51:33.40 | Nick | Oh that right? yeah.
51:42.20 | faster_horses | Ah, woven materials so they can feel where the things are and ah, kind of what when you were saying that Mark ah, you say what? Ah what they were discussing they ad kind like this parlay with a war infection without spoiling the details too much. Um and what happened in that is.
51:45.77 | Nick | Man I am.
52:01.61 | faster_horses | 1 side Drew a different map than the other it was still the same land but they said oh yeah, we didn't put that on because that's a strategic advantage and because no 1 can see that the maps were true to them and you know, kind of it meant something totally different.
52:11.61 | James | A.
52:13.84 | Nick | Um, ah, that's awesome.
52:14.36 | Mark | Um.
52:20.15 | faster_horses | To the other tribes and it was is really yeah and it was really interesting.
52:26.24 | Nick | If you've just resold me on that show because I started watching it and to me it just looked like zaechi nine or 2 1 or everyone was like totally gorgeous, but and it was just ripping off like a way better version that I've already seeing before so I just didn't bother anyway, yeah should we move on now.
52:38.95 | faster_horses | Ah, anyway, what time is it? Yeah, but.
52:41.52 | Mark | Um.
52:46.24 | Nick | It's that it's that time again, she works tamba air time. No, it's not you ox tombola time. Yeah today we will be hand scrubbing our pet ox damien.
52:49.57 | faster_horses | And yeah.
52:50.25 | Mark | Now No but ice now hello and welcome to you. Walk's tomboler hour.
53:03.16 | Mark | Um, oils then we'll kill him and eat him. Thank you Daian Welcome to you walks tomboer. Um.
53:04.23 | Nick | With a selection of ox friendly. Yeah I Ah right.
53:04.42 | faster_horses | Um I hope he is in his bones to make some quality gelatin. So.
53:22.54 | Mark | Um, for our jealous and.
53:22.68 | Nick | I'll I'll grind these boards I'll grind his bones to make my bread paul ah right, do we need to do a song or was that it was that my fuck took the Tenth. Okay, right? like ah.
53:23.14 | faster_horses | Ah, okay I Ah I'd say more songs than Maria for me. Yeah.
53:31.99 | Mark | Um, I think that was more than enough. But.
53:40.47 | Nick | Well songs of America. Do we do we get james if I if we were to say as our special guest in resident music shouldn't you want to go doing a what the fuck was ah.
53:42.93 | faster_horses | Things.
53:48.12 | Mark | Are ah.
53:52.12 | faster_horses | James has said turned into an Ox ah who ah.
53:59.25 | James | Mis Red to misread the brief there I It was you walk you walks Tombo I was I was wrong, Wrong theme tune sorry about.
53:59.61 | Nick | Was that it.
54:02.86 | Mark | Um, when I have you know.
54:05.28 | faster_horses | Ah, ah.
54:10.48 | Nick | Right? Well but that was that right? Okay so I need to give the machine a big a big rattle that we read it and that yeah.
54:14.87 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, okay, cool ready. So go on.
54:16.61 | Mark | Um, it's not in my room at the minute. Yeah.
54:28.43 | Nick | Um, right? Okay, well after that after that very thorough spin there. We go. It's good now wait for it to stop. So we've got.
54:30.10 | Mark | Not such a power for spin that 1 although we go.
54:32.92 | faster_horses | There we go? Yeah there we go cool. Ah.
54:45.63 | Nick | Um, this very real piece of paper that's in front of me and a log clocks.
54:47.77 | Mark | Um, oh well first of all I want to say it for the count I am extraordinarily for analog clogs I think batteries are for the weak and these mechanisms should underppill civilized society that is.
54:48.37 | faster_horses | Um, oh.
54:49.27 | James | Oh.
54:59.29 | Nick | Um, under so Analogue clogs did you say that but are these digital clogs.
55:02.36 | faster_horses | I And yeah for older. Yeah but under pill I know Clogs Love it.
55:05.93 | James | Okay.
55:07.15 | Mark | The clock. Yeah yeah, all these light up clogs with all the fancy carved in detail analog clocks.
55:16.79 | Nick | I And that is yeah well I guess that that's an interest in clarification though because you can have a.
55:19.36 | James | By by Analog we're talking about a face with hands right? yeah.
55:23.30 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, yeah, including or not including the powering mechanism but I wouldn't call a battery digital.
55:35.66 | faster_horses | Yeah.
55:36.90 | Nick | And angle why can't any of us say this analog clock that's digital car. You so look like on my ah Apple watch. That's an analog clock but it's all digital. So yeah I guess yeah, any any any form of Facebook hand so this is.
55:36.82 | Mark | Um, and yeah.
55:40.97 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
55:45.27 | Mark | Um, it's It's a numerical display of the ring of numbers with hands. Yeah.
55:54.92 | Nick | Yeah, so this is 1 of the things that I've immediately I immediately talk about with like digital numbers versus like an analog clock is that I think an analog clock is easier to tell the time on because that's an image and you look at it.
56:06.72 | James | A.
56:10.81 | Nick | And you recognize the image and the image tells you what time it is. That's why you don't need numbers on the face unless you're my girlfriend or 5 year old um but whereas a digital display with the numbers on it. You have to and pop. Um.
56:16.64 | Mark | Are well.
56:27.45 | Nick | If it's a digital display with numbers on it. You have to read it and then convert that in your head and understand what time that actually means.
56:29.26 | James | Yeah, okay.
56:34.78 | Mark | So I think you are exactly right to a point. Ah because I think what we do eventually? Um, so what you're talking about. There is just basic symbology isn't it What the different positions become a myriad of symbols over time I Think what we find is.
56:43.73 | faster_horses | Blue.
56:44.19 | Nick | Um, yeah.
56:52.67 | Mark | Ah, analog clocks eventually do the same and zero zero zero zero becomes four circles that mean midnight and seventeen 30 isn't seventeen thirty anymore that share becomes 5 in our head to the point where I sometimes see it happened the other day.
57:04.82 | James | Me.
57:11.58 | Mark | Ah, saw 14 written down and I thought oh 2 and it's just completely subverted.
57:13.35 | James | And.
57:14.85 | Nick | I am still not there I'm still not there with that I know that seventeen zero zero is five o'clock because that used to be the time that I prayed for all day when I used to work in jobs I hit I used to check my watch every five minutes and anything either side of.
57:25.48 | Mark | Um, since since yeah.
57:29.73 | James | Boom.
57:33.92 | Nick | Seventeen I have to figure out and convert in my head still as to what is that? what? and even.
57:36.99 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, but similarly you have to you have to learn to um, tell the time my first and incidentally only girlfriend um not not because she couldn't tell the time but she couldn't tell the time she could read digital.
57:43.60 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
57:50.42 | Nick | Um, but.
57:55.37 | Mark | First is you probably had to do the same translation that that you're talking about but faced with um, a usual analogue clock face just had no idea and and similarly the amount of people I've met who can't read Roman numerals some certain clock quote faces.
58:09.44 | Nick | Yeah, but the thing see the difficulty with that is the overcomplication of the terminology that you've got to learn. It's not not knowing what time it is like if you look at a clock.
58:14.31 | Mark | They can't can't read either.
58:27.86 | Mark | You.
58:27.91 | Nick | You can understand what time it is the difficulty comes communicate in that time to someone else using the pre-approved terminology. So like you saying 22 four is the same as saying 3 four. Yeah, 3
58:34.84 | Mark | Now this.
58:42.49 | Mark | Forty past 3 But yeah you 3 far you can say 3 five but you can't say if pardon pass 3
58:43.96 | James | And.
58:47.34 | Nick | Ah, 3 foot. Yeah exactly I'll say but but you but you can like you still know that there are sixty minutes in an hour and that forty minutes means that you had twenty minutes left and that's absolutely fine, but because somewhere down our history. We've all. Got together and decided that that's actually wrong and you need to tell it backwards when you get when you get to half past time starts moving backwards then that's the difficulty whereas just looking a kid. The difficult thing to teach to a kid is that stupid terminology. Not what time they are looking at.
59:05.73 | Mark | Um, yeah.
59:18.49 | James | And yeah, did the so the we've got an ad lot clock in every room in the house and the the granularity of that is what changes as well because if I'm looking at a twenty four hour digital clock. Like now it's 18 39 if I was talking to someone that said, what time is it so it's 18 what it's now eighteen forty if I looked at an analog clock face in my house I'd go its about court 6 yeah quarter seven sorry you know I see ah look at an analog clock face and I immediately. My granularity just goes out the window and I start oh yes, it's almost 7 o'clock you know is that kind of that kind of specificity just doesn't doesn't exist for me when I look at an analog clock face.
59:57.66 | Mark | Um, now I think I think this has a really really this has a really interesting implication though because I found that to almost a crippling degree in terms of my own.
59:59.71 | Nick | Um, yeah, yeah.
01:00:17.00 | Mark | Will an agency won't do something until it's hit an equal number. That's the big 1 That's the big 1 and then of course you spend long enough or at least I do with your eyes close sighing or lamenting your position in life that um.
01:00:20.83 | Nick | Um, an equal number or something. Yeah, yeah.
01:00:22.50 | James | Getting out of bed. Yeah, got to wait until that sweet spot. Yeah.
01:00:36.24 | Mark | When you wake up is two minutes past so it's like oh got to stay in bed till quarterderpas now. But it's only logical whereas. Of course if I had an analog clock the ticking would have kept me up all night anyway. So I would never have got to sleep in the first place
01:00:36.58 | James | Yeah, you know.
01:00:38.00 | Nick | Um, I go yeah I got admit.
01:00:49.40 | James | I've just kickstarted a clock that is it's an e-ink display and every minute of every day I think um I think it's every minute of every day is a quote from a book where ah.
01:01:03.70 | faster_horses | Ah, council's nice.
01:01:04.53 | James | A time of days mentioned and so there's like a full quote with with it in there. Um I say I think it's every minute of the day because I can't imagine ever composing that number of quotes with that level of specificity. But um.
01:01:05.31 | Nick | Ah, sick.
01:01:22.57 | James | Sort of this mosquito flying around in this room I was keeping an eye and of and no, but yeah, an open wind. Um.
01:01:24.93 | faster_horses | Yeah, and yeah here where where do you live James in South America would was eat. Ah.
01:01:25.59 | Mark | Is after all that blood. You've got lying around. Yeah yeah, don't think what you've got there really is a mosquito.
01:01:28.50 | Nick | Um.
01:01:41.13 | James | So yeah I think the the way we we consider time and the way we think about time changes depending on the clocks. We've got and I'm mostly thinking about other extensions as well. Like um I listened to a podcast last week and somebody was talking about. Um, they're going to change the way they teach driving. Ah, because when I was learning to drive. It was 10 and 2 and 10 2 is such an abstraction for somebody. You know for for a young person now you know 17 year old in this day and age what the you know what? the fuck is 10 in 2.
01:02:03.67 | Nick | Move.
01:02:17.68 | faster_horses | All yeah.
01:02:18.71 | Mark | Um, but it's.
01:02:20.49 | James | You know what? what? what? What even is that it's like well it's you know it's this this bit of the clock and this bit of the clock and like yeah this like hold hold your hands with ah um, a forty five degree Imagine you've rotated a circle you need forty five degrees between both of the hands.
01:02:33.89 | faster_horses | Um, you know I was reading about this as well. The other the other week and I know why they because I've changed it because steel wheels are smaller now than they were when we'd learnt to drive So when we learnt to drive.
01:02:37.81 | James | It's that it's that level of ridiculousness for I think um.
01:02:48.19 | James | M.
01:02:52.67 | Mark | Um, you know and big lorries. Um.
01:02:53.14 | faster_horses | Wasn't really power but there wasn't really power steering so you kind of needed that you needed that thing now. But but because Steam wheels are smaller. It's better to hold it at was it court past nine. Ah.
01:02:54.12 | Nick | Um, Jesus penny fathers.
01:03:02.32 | Mark | Um.
01:03:08.79 | Nick | Yeah, well yeah, the the a lot it in but yet the change in that because you don't have to hold it anywhere in particular now. Dear.
01:03:08.91 | James | But it put it in the tumbol I put it in the Tumbola steering wheels the ux of steering wheels. Get it in there and I I I I personally like an analog clock. Um.
01:03:09.21 | Mark | Um, and yeah, that's a.
01:03:11.95 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah.
01:03:27.61 | James | Say a house is full of them and I think it's 1 of those things it will probably go the way of the sundial at some point in in history.
01:03:36.70 | Mark | Um, but I'm sure them in making a comeback in some form. It's just not to tell the time.
01:03:41.36 | James | Well, the sun's going to be out a lot more isn't it once the um, the planet warms up. So.
01:03:41.85 | Nick | Not in the middle of the night anywhere
01:03:44.99 | faster_horses | Are.
01:03:45.50 | Mark | What? yeah yeah, and we're all under 6 foot of water. But um, but I think you actually kind of make that point inadvertently when you talk about a clock that tells you a caught instead of telling you the time of the day because the time of the day there is a secondary Function. You've got the delight of you know the aesthetic delight of you know something sensory quite a sensor sensor earlier that really quite nice. Um, so I think yeah I think that's what's happening now clocks like that are being used. Primarily as statement pieces as decoration as as bits of artwork and you do get some incredible Clockwork I'd say Horology is quite an art in itself. Um, and yeah I think ah I think that's what that's what we'll see happen. There.
01:04:22.64 | Nick | Um.
01:04:37.21 | faster_horses | Um, know.
01:04:40.41 | Mark | Much as a sundial they'll be used as ah, ah either a place ornamental yeah are a place to leave a a body dramatically pulsed.
01:04:41.67 | Nick | Um, fundamental.
01:04:46.70 | faster_horses | Yeah, you what 1 of the weirdest inventions of recent time was ah the digital speaker alexa. Um, the.
01:04:59.86 | Mark | Um.
01:05:02.30 | faster_horses | Ah, in a analog clock and that kind of like really puzzled and confused me why you'd put a digital assistant in an analog clock. Ah I don't know that yeah you see ah.
01:05:14.88 | Nick | Why where does that happen.
01:05:19.94 | Mark | Ah, yeah.
01:05:20.70 | Nick | All right? Well, that's my answer.
01:05:21.46 | faster_horses | Um, so yeah, so this this clock are fairly cheap when you can ask it as you would at is an ax as a ah speaker smart speaker and you can ask it questions and they does timers and things like that for you and it.
01:05:36.69 | James | How far be how far do you go with the analogue though because um I've been working in nottingham well enough the last few weeks and back in my hometown and a really nice thing that I didn't realize I'd missed was that the council house in the middle of town.
01:05:36.87 | Mark | Are.
01:05:55.80 | James | Um bongs on the hour and also does um does the Quarter hour bong so you know there's like a different jingle at the the quarter hour. So when I was walking up towards this office from the train station yesterday morning. Um I heard the clock going and they were going right? it.
01:06:03.98 | Mark | Um.
01:06:04.94 | faster_horses | Yep, that.
01:06:11.87 | Mark | You Oh shit I'm late loves a yo.
01:06:15.15 | James | But and but I was like I listened and then I was like oh that's just that's just course too and it was like ah an an adible link and in um, in our house. We've got ah Yanka's great grandfathernd's old clock and which yeah.
01:06:30.30 | Nick | Um, literally a grandfather's clock.
01:06:32.69 | Mark | Um.
01:06:34.62 | James | Yeah, literally yeah um, and there's a few stories about that I actually I haven't broken it. But what I've done is I've I took 1 of the change too far off the top I now need to reseat it and that's a pain in the art. So I'm not doing that and it wasn't built by. Um.
01:06:40.47 | Mark | That's actually an afo watch.
01:06:51.50 | James | By the nazis either which was a ah concern I had when we first got it because the company because the company is the company who makes who made that clock ah centuries old and um and they were they were around in Nazi germany and did get um you know, forced labor to build their clocks.
01:06:57.20 | Mark | I've met.
01:07:09.61 | Nick | Um, all the best ones were are Pre-nazi glock.
01:07:11.25 | James | Luckily this 1 was built before the nazis were in power. So so so we can we can sleep save at night and was wasn't wasn't built by enslaved peoples shits I hope nazis haven't built this? Yeah um.
01:07:12.94 | Mark | Um, ah yeah, yeah, no, it was just poorly compensated labor. Yeah.
01:07:15.80 | faster_horses | I Yeah I have every time I buy Yeah every time I buy a clockp now I'm going to think is this made by nus. But but.
01:07:27.92 | Mark | That.
01:07:30.85 | James | But that you know that that was a common feature to all analog clocks at 1 point in time and at a certain point in History. We decided oh you know what? the clock shouldn't make that sound every fifteen minutes or every hour. Well we're going to take them out and and it's you know it's varying degrees of of. Um, you know they don't wind up anymore and all these other things but we've scraped away scraped away and look at Nick's nick's watch now. It's an analog face on a screen it's it's it's it's ah a pale resemblance to what it was before it's it's a different device exactly.
01:08:02.12 | Nick | So copy of a copy of a copy to the point where you forgot why it even looks like that in the first place
01:08:05.20 | faster_horses | Yeah I I.
01:08:08.71 | Mark | Oh that's quite a ah sad kind of way of putting it I would have put you know, but I mean yes yeah.
01:08:15.90 | Nick | It's just the way we've always done it. Mark.
01:08:17.14 | James | I keep I keep tilting my camera by the way towards this clock which I got for my birthday. Um, no, this 1 wasn't this 1 was danish this 1 ne's danish actually have I'm telling the time on this because um, the minute hand and the hour hand.
01:08:21.16 | faster_horses | Oh yes.
01:08:23.91 | Nick | Was that made by nazis.
01:08:26.37 | Mark | Um, yes, this is him.
01:08:26.72 | faster_horses | Ah.
01:08:29.77 | Nick | Um, I are.
01:08:35.77 | faster_horses | Oh.
01:08:37.40 | James | Almost identical in length. There are no numbers on it and they're very chunky setting the time when it was paid in the as um, um, and um, yeah I'm terrified you know the clocks are changing in a couple of weeks or I needs stay comfortable I'm not looking forward to that.
01:08:40.39 | Mark | Um, it's either a quarter to nine or a quarter past 3
01:08:42.16 | faster_horses | Um, ah oh gods.
01:08:50.39 | Nick | Um.
01:08:52.74 | Mark | Um, hang it up at any angle whatsoever.
01:08:54.20 | faster_horses | Yeah.
01:08:55.45 | James | So um, yeah.
01:08:56.64 | Nick | So that that kind of segues us into the last part of this podcast which is the the product advert but I was just going to say as you were talking about that. What a nice addition to a very standard analog clock would be that it sets its own time in like daylight savings Time. So if that what that? Yeah I'm I'm sure. Yeah I'm sure they do Yeah I'm sure that you know there is ones out there and like obviously most.
01:09:13.83 | James | Some do during they some do? yeah.
01:09:15.99 | faster_horses | Yeah, yet.
01:09:24.18 | Nick | A lot of digital clocks these days set the themselves like your apple following and your apple watching and stuff do it all lot. Michael don't they, but if you could find and a nice analog clock like that 1 behind you that you didn't have to take off the wall or you could even change yourselfve just by pushing it 1
01:09:33.71 | James | Ah, had I had an an analog smart watch um, made by god with thingss the company was and it set itself. You know when you first turned on and it was a.
01:09:42.49 | faster_horses | You know.
01:09:48.10 | Nick | Oh what? like wound like it was haunted. That's amazing.
01:09:52.88 | Mark | Um, 13 significant changing.
01:09:53.10 | James | Yeah, yeah, it. It was very uncanny just to sit and watch it and it would change. Um for daylight savings as well because it was synced to your phone. It was very um, eerie.
01:09:58.26 | Nick | Oh.
01:09:59.73 | Mark | You know what if I was to implement that any change I'd want to happen in the reverse direction in an anticlockwise motion just to really freak people like because you've never really seen a clock move like that and that's something you don't think of it.
01:10:11.90 | James | Man man.
01:10:11.78 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
01:10:17.35 | Nick | I's I'd sit in my life size Replica of the time machine that like moved backwards as it was doing it.
01:10:19.94 | faster_horses | Um.
01:10:21.85 | Mark | I.
01:10:21.88 | James | Well it happened every time. Ah, every time we got off for plane in a foreign country and I turn a phone back on it would it would change itself and I I quite look forward to that moment. So.
01:10:25.58 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, yeah.
01:10:31.30 | Mark | My my phone and I'm sure because my phone's are a little rectangle of shit and my phone tells me the current time when I'm abroad and then the time back home as well and I think the majority if not every single form.
01:10:32.17 | Nick | That's also and I love that.
01:10:43.85 | Nick | Ah, yeah.
01:10:48.68 | faster_horses | Um.
01:10:49.55 | Mark | Since mine and behold does that know which I think's a niter feature.
01:10:49.60 | James | What you say that I think I think that's the end of this segment isn't it. But I've got so many things I could talk about clocks.
01:10:50.43 | Nick | So so well could do another clock based Ux yeah.
01:10:53.91 | faster_horses | Um, I know yeah we could. Ah.
01:10:57.32 | Mark | Oh my God clock facts with you x.
01:11:00.66 | James | Yeah, had to get had to get caught Paul off steering wheels as quickly as possible there because that was like a red rag to a bull with me. Oh let me talk about them.
01:11:07.00 | Nick | Um, we should do a Bo innus episode where we just continue to bitch about your exam bold the subject. Yeah, and so I think I think we've got ah.
01:11:11.85 | faster_horses | Um, kind of.
01:11:16.45 | James | But if.
01:11:16.76 | faster_horses | Marks yeah, especially Nazi glocks. Ah I ah I think can can you make it Mark mark steeler could you? um want.
01:11:17.44 | Mark | Clocks. Okay.
01:11:24.19 | Nick | Ah, Mark steeler product there which is a self-winding clock. We just need to think of a terrible pun.
01:11:25.64 | Mark | All right? Okay, okay, okay L a yeah as of.
01:11:34.47 | faster_horses | 1 of the problems I have with clocks is the useless when you're looking at them in a mirror and little clocks so you can make a mirror clock that be amazing. But.
01:11:39.85 | Mark | Right? Okay I've got the perfect product for you. Paul will show made specially for you. Mr. Wilshare today and it is the trans dimensional reverse or clock.
01:11:50.97 | faster_horses | Amazing. Yeah.
01:11:54.58 | Nick | Tell his Mom mark.
01:11:59.75 | Mark | I'm glad you watched So this clock always appears the right way but never ticks the right way and this will always keep you very alert at what time it could be which will always keep you looking at a better clock fundamentally.
01:12:09.89 | Nick | Um.
01:12:11.23 | James | Ah.
01:12:18.59 | Mark | You'll always be thinking foremost about the time and we've even got a slogan 36 it's the best time of day hands down. But.
01:12:23.27 | Nick | I.
01:12:26.69 | faster_horses | Um, ah.
01:12:37.32 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, ah, ah well.
01:12:37.85 | Mark | Thank you! That's a transdi dimensionional clock. Um, ah thank you mark.
01:12:43.27 | Nick | I.
01:12:45.53 | James | Ah, good count.
01:12:51.53 | Nick | Um, ah.
01:12:54.90 | James | Yeah, and incidentally i' I am about to um to kickstart a clock. It's got hundreds of times on its face that it isn't and it's your job. It's your job to do.
01:12:56.14 | faster_horses | Ah.
01:12:56.89 | Mark | Thank you? But you're very welcome.
01:13:03.52 | Mark | Are.
01:13:13.10 | Nick | Um, that's fucking. Amazing.
01:13:13.81 | faster_horses | And ah.
01:13:14.81 | James | To doe what time it is by what time isn't I told you that story that time didn't I where that clock had been stopped for months and I finally went to put a new battery in it and I put the new battery in looked at the looked at a functioning clock to see what time it was to set it and it was that time.
01:13:18.19 | Mark | Are.
01:13:21.82 | faster_horses | Um, oh yeah.
01:13:30.57 | faster_horses | Um, oh it's pretty.
01:13:31.91 | Mark | Do da da da da but.
01:13:32.60 | Nick | Um, that's mental.
01:13:34.36 | James | It's it was put the battery in at the very time of day that it stopped.
01:13:38.27 | Nick | So something equally as creepy as that Drew is just.
01:14:00.50 | faster_horses | Um, know or fire is it's on a mind. It's on a mind. It's in a subconscious.
01:14:04.40 | James | Whoa.
01:14:07.90 | Mark | Didn't do we've um, wave. Well, it's not that is it's that we've recently diversed out diversified our portfolio into into word searching gaps.
01:14:07.46 | James | Here knows.
01:14:15.62 | James | Yes.
01:14:19.43 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah, yeah, well that was the North star of version 8
01:14:20.88 | Mark | I. Um.
01:14:29.54 | James | Great value. Um.
01:14:30.97 | Mark | But yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was our vision so there was there was 2 things I really wanted to mention the first 1 was a creepy clock thing that happened to me.
01:14:36.38 | faster_horses | Ah, what can we do? let's pivot from automation and put what.
01:14:38.14 | James | Yeah, but definitely not leaving Thisa now we christ.
01:14:47.99 | faster_horses | Um, ah.
01:14:53.76 | Mark | So I don't know if you remember twenty sixteen dogg josh oh that works. But but at 2016 the world was meant to oh no, was it 2012201226 the world was meant to end I was in college. Um.
01:14:57.99 | James | Um. 2012 yeah.
01:15:12.96 | Mark | And we did a countdown. There was a Google countdown on for the world to end and obviously believe it or not nothing happened just started tick up again and then my teacher my music teacher rushed into the room and was like this is really weird. This clock has just stopped no.
01:15:28.46 | James | Well I've got a screen grab somewhere unlike a backup somewhere that's now 10 years old almost and it was on the eleventh of november two thousand and eleven at.
01:15:32.35 | Mark | That was it. Yeah.
01:15:45.68 | James | Eleven minutes past eleven seconds past eleven minutes past eleven and I don't just realize that it was that time and I opened the system clock on my um, my mac and I thought I'll just screen grab this when it comes over just I'll just I'll just get it just don't know just so I remember a screen grabbed it. And when the screenshot loaded up it was 12.
01:16:07.35 | Mark | Um.