Brackish Mung or Is it time to rethink packaging design?

In this episode, we look at packaging design and how different needs and requirements can change the way you design. We also discuss how consideration for disabilities, care for our environment, and other factors can influence your decisions as a designer. Brackish Mung or Is it time to rethink packaging design?

Some packaging is overly bloated and psychologically affects our purchase decisions, we look at some of the dark UX around packaging and how clear consistent labels, braille and colour accessibility should be used by default, rather than those bags of crisps with 90% air!

Want to know more, with all this – and the cure for Firespray, enjoy!

Support us, with a cup of Brackish Mung, at https://www.patreon.com/FasterHorses

Sound effects from https://www.zapsplat.com

Title music: James Medd
Produced by:
Paul Wilshaw
Nick Tomlinson
Mark Sutcliffe
James Medd
Anthony Jones
Chris Sutcliffe

Transcript

Timestamp | Speaker | Transcript
00:00.00 | Nick | Will all be quite nice. You'll keep very dapper already Mark yeah, ah really I mean I guess that's the benefit of always dressing well in it that even when you phone it in you look better than the other 2 sods in the car.
00:00.10 | Mark | Um, ah I have literally got out of bed four minutes ago. No.
00:01.88 | faster_horses | Definitely now now. Ah, love it. Yeah yeah, yeah, if if yeah, if anyone's watching this now. Mark is wearing his pajamas. Ah.
00:19.51 | Mark | Yeah, that yeah this is this what I sleep in collar stairs and all.
00:24.44 | faster_horses | So yeah I I know hello coco yeah 1 and up. Um, ah, that's nice. That's size. Yeah I she just got up.
00:30.41 | Nick | Brits sleeping breast is Barne kuka.
00:32.78 | Mark | Um, what does she want.
00:35.86 | Nick | Oh that's cute. Yeah.
00:43.50 | faster_horses | So no often playing with my toys are you playing with the toys. So okay, yeah, yeah, yeah for ages and then up yeah up and play with my Lego Ah, ah like it's.
00:45.87 | Nick | Me to cook ah that they're just behind me. This is might be pup figure playing with my toys means keeping them in the packaging though and just.
00:58.94 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, it means set there looking at them. Yeah.
01:03.32 | Nick | Sort of ah admiring them at a distance.
01:03.71 | faster_horses | Um, ah love yeah, she's trying to listen in now she can't hear hey.
01:08.44 | Mark | Um, know Hello Coco Neverler Never you just decrease a value by at least fifty pounds.
01:13.93 | Nick | That good that goes back over there never to be touched again. Yeah, the acids in my fingers have ruined the the printed on the front of the parks now.
01:20.70 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, you, you've just taken 10 pounds off the value I just hadn't ah oh god I've been um into every every year
01:26.90 | Mark | Um.
01:30.81 | Nick | But as well open it and.
01:31.75 | Mark | But great.
01:39.58 | faster_horses | Ah I kind of do this and it always get like a um lego advent calendars around the house. So we all kind of have 1 each and then every to every year I kind of look at them and like liquor the prices and last year's go for like eighty quid the light which is.
01:41.71 | Mark | How is.
01:44.78 | Nick | Ah, nice. Yeah.
01:55.00 | Nick | How much are they new then I thought they'd be quite expensive. Oh that's not bad.
01:58.85 | faster_horses | ah like 2025 quid ah 25 to think? Yeah, yeah because you can't get it after.
02:01.36 | Mark | Haley I It is it because it's exclusive stuff thumb.
02:06.94 | Nick | Is it What is it is it just the mini figures or do you get like little cars and stuff to make. Ah.
02:11.13 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, little cars and kind of like you get um, don't put my hood up. Ah um, you get kind of like vehicles and ah you get like a scene basically with the mini figures as well. So it's quite nice.
02:11.57 | Mark | But.
02:25.22 | Mark | We we have. We have a a Christmas leg or set that we put out um that we is our version of a nativity scene. Um know it's it. Well.
02:27.58 | Nick | Oh I have to get 1 Ah.
02:31.20 | faster_horses | And like yeah yeah, it's good. Oh.
02:40.43 | Nick | Um, yeah, oh do do you make it yourself. Yeah.
02:45.10 | Mark | It's an actual christmas set. It's like a Christmas village set what we then choose to do is to incorporate a load of other stuff there and turn it into some horrifically violent scene of tragedy. Um, yeah so I might.
02:49.60 | faster_horses | Nice.
02:52.52 | Nick | Ah I love up I there's a really nice Christmas set. That's it's a bit like a gingerbread house or like a just ah like ah, a scanty sort of Christmas house. It's really nice.
02:59.46 | faster_horses | Nice.
03:08.49 | Mark | Who.
03:10.30 | faster_horses | Who yeah.
03:12.40 | Nick | And a proposed to jew that we buy that and then every year christmas build it and put it out somewhere. Um and that that has sold me on tryter run it pasture again I think because I think that's a really nice idea. It do you build it every ear marker is it just you just lift it out the box and it's done.
03:15.54 | faster_horses | E.
03:21.30 | faster_horses | Yeah, do it, do it.
03:23.44 | Mark | Ah, no, we yeah, we should build it every year but no we're lazy bastards we just kind of break it into 3 or four parts and then each time we put it together. It is slightly more decrepit than the year before because.
03:39.00 | Nick | Right? yeah.
03:39.23 | faster_horses | Um.
03:41.85 | Mark | 1 or 2 pieces has fallen off and we can't quite remember how we don't I don't know where the instruction booklet is to be honest, um.
03:47.75 | Nick | I really like that idea I like the idea of it kind of growing and mutate in every year a little bit you get like a different figure in it or a different bit of awful.
03:51.92 | Mark | yeah yeah I think last last year I ah because I collected the lego castle set that cat remember the name but the lego kingdoms or whatever it was called um and there was a that's it. Yeah.
03:53.59 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. But more the paper putting your breakfast in life Well got a while.
04:06.89 | Nick | I Love that stuff the old night stuff.
04:10.51 | Mark | Um, and there was a turret in there with a cage so we I appended that to the roof of 1 of the houses and had santa in the cage. So we'll probably end up somewhat some variation on that theme.
04:21.85 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah.
04:24.33 | Nick | Ah, is I will not now be it. So.
04:28.68 | faster_horses | We yeah, we we used to have a little house out and before coco kind of like got really messy. Um and and we used to kind of like yeah. Different seasons that have different things so like Halloween I'd have light all spooky stuff and christmas then it pretend christmas sea and then the Summer would have like surf for people so it was it was nice and then um.
04:50.97 | Mark | In.
04:58.30 | faster_horses | Coca just piled lights of drawings and things on top of it and lost some pieces and so yeah, we we archived it to the loft. Ah.
05:00.31 | Mark | Yeah, so that it was nice while it lasted.
05:04.43 | Nick | Oh but that's great. Yeah, but if you've if you've lost some pieces That's when you start making it your own because you fill it in with some other stuff. You should do that a bit like ah drinking would should be interested in it now.
05:09.81 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah I know oh yeah, totally totally? Yeah, she um I have to fend her off and playing with mine Lego She yeah I found um.
05:20.81 | Mark | Further For instance.
05:21.82 | Nick | There you go then.
05:28.80 | faster_horses | I've got slave 1 over there and I found some random lego pieces inside slave 1 which was ah now oh yeah, now you know? yeah, they've changed it.
05:34.75 | Nick | You not a lot call it that anymore. What's its name now. It's somemit really forgettable of crap.
05:37.54 | Mark | I mean I don't I don't know what this what this is talking about but you the popular franchise of films all right a thing.
05:45.77 | Nick | So but boba effect in star wars is is ship has always been called slave 1 Yeah um, and yet last last year or this year they changed the name because.
05:45.85 | faster_horses | Um, Oh yeah. Um, is it bubble rule. Yeah.
05:57.00 | Mark | And that was cold like drum.
06:03.66 | Nick | Apparently there's only ever been 1 instance of slavery in human history and that is that that own nice owned by America thought yeah so to use the word slave in ah in any context immediately is is well I mean it is bad. It is ah it is a bad concept. But.
06:07.60 | Mark | Oh yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
06:15.50 | Mark | Um, is bad I mean it is is since the dawn of time.
06:18.13 | faster_horses | Yeah.
06:22.55 | Nick | You know it has existed outside of yeah I mean the Americans very much. What's the word I'm thinking of yeah they did it I want to I Want to say they did it the best but that's not what I mean.
06:28.15 | Mark | Set of precedent. They they Well I mean they certainly felt so at the time that they we doing it The best.
06:39.62 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, they've like perfected it. That's not even a good way to say it what what? I'm try to say is that it's a that point in time is a black stain on human history and it it's because of america.
06:43.50 | faster_horses | Ah, now it is It is it.
06:52.75 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
06:54.42 | Mark | Um, succeed for de truth my.
06:58.19 | Nick | That's what I'm sure that's say not that they did it not that they did it Well they did it the worst they did it the worst. Maybe maybe that's what I'm proud.
07:01.83 | Mark | Ah, they did that they were the best at being the worst there you go but I mean no sidly veiled Xophoia. Yeah.
07:02.46 | faster_horses | Um, they you nice I like it. Yeah yeah.
07:08.77 | Nick | And we don't We don't have to confine that just to American slavery either. Um, can we edit can we edit that bit out please because it's um, it sounded like I was cheerleading American Slavery and I'm really not.
07:19.62 | faster_horses | Yeah, ah have 10 Yeah, but.
07:20.64 | Mark | Slavery. Yeah, maybe that maybe that topic is ah is ah even a bit too spicy even for faster Horse is.
07:27.65 | Nick | Come again. Even for me. Um, but yeah, so yeah, it it used to be called slave 1 and it it was probably just like an arbitrary naming things just a bit of a George Lucas naming. But yeah, they decided it's probably not a good I did to call it that.
07:33.92 | faster_horses | Ah, ah.
07:43.53 | Mark | 5
07:45.28 | faster_horses | Yeah I think is it I home. Um, yeah, what was it? Yeah, they get.
07:48.50 | Mark | John.
07:48.68 | Nick | But I don't know what they've called that I'm gonna I get up a lot now.
07:54.70 | Nick | It somemit really crap. It's like fucking starburst or some fire spray I was pretty close that fire spray that sounds like what happens after a night of promiscuous sleeping around on it.
07:59.86 | Mark | Good this it.
08:04.54 | faster_horses | Fires Bright? Ah yeah.
08:08.12 | Mark | Yeah, so just shows like something that um Julian Mcke I didn't get pro prodding round and so for were box.
08:12.85 | faster_horses | Ah, ah God Yeah, ah no I can't.
08:19.59 | Nick | Right? We're not getting on. We're not talking Well oh yeah, ah but a bad case of Fireish Spplayy rub some yogurt tongue to the end of it.
08:24.62 | Mark | Ah, see you've got the fire spray.
08:33.10 | faster_horses | Ah, it sees the american term for gallstones but ah, which is what' what's today's topic
08:34.78 | Mark | Um, ah.
08:36.55 | Nick | As all on ah right? What's today's what's to this topic.
08:47.25 | Mark | Um, yeah.
08:50.76 | Nick | Is it time to rethink packaging design. Oh let's do that Then let's rethink packaging design.
08:50.97 | faster_horses | Is I I think it is yeah I'm just googling and how much packaging plastic is used ever. It.
08:55.28 | Mark | Let's have a less of a ponder here. Um.
09:05.10 | Nick | Ah, we could be not hit from that angle right? okay.
09:05.90 | Mark | The old single use stuff.
09:09.43 | faster_horses | Well, it could be all good. The design of it or everything because I think I don't think the design packaging design has changed hugely over the last 20 years
09:23.30 | Nick | Not in um, not in mass manufacturing certainly I mean that's probably a reason why it's It's a lot of it's mass manufactureured I'm assuming as well without doing any research which is a staple of the shot that.
09:34.78 | Mark | Yeah, absolutely.
09:39.56 | Nick | A lot of the same place as make packaging for a lot of different companies right? So the same factory produces packaging for a lot of different company so they're they're in control of all that I imagine to a certain extent that certain suspect extent god Sorry it is not even halfpast nine in the morning and there's markers.
09:42.86 | faster_horses | There? yeah.
09:52.37 | faster_horses | Devil.
09:59.70 | Nick | Filled us in. We've already been away for about about 20 How long's this been going on for ten minutes and four seconds. So we've all been awake for eleven minutes and fall. Yeah, um.
10:00.95 | Mark | Ah, ten minutes yeah and four seconds here. Yeah.
10:03.10 | faster_horses | Ah, to me speak for yourself. I've only been awake just after five minutes. Ah I well.
10:12.64 | Mark | And.
10:17.70 | Nick | Of m.
10:19.00 | faster_horses | I Think that this is a ah this is a massive subject I they package it because I think there's accessibility in packaging design which I think Fails Fails hugely, um in in loads of kind of like dimensions you know, small font sizes. Um.
10:23.40 | Mark | Yes.
10:38.93 | faster_horses | There's there's labeling and stuff like that like um I'm vegetarian so kind of like so if I buy a new product I've not had before I'd probably stand in the aisle looking at it for about ten minutes just to determine what ingredients are in it. Ah.
10:41.80 | Mark | Please.
10:49.76 | Mark | Whether yes, that's it. That's it.
10:56.22 | faster_horses | Yeah, and kind of like healthy things and I kind of like the red light label stuff. You know the red green blue. But then that that is ruined by per 10 servants I think you you had a kind of goak Yesterday mark um, other brands are available. So.
11:06.25 | Mark | Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but why? yeah.
11:14.56 | Nick | But other brands are available when they don't have cook. Ah.
11:15.67 | faster_horses | Yeah, um, and it's kind of like you do So the serving sizes and kind of like you know when when do people you know, kind of oh if you have an eighth of a kit cat.
11:31.63 | Nick | Um.
11:32.26 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, and yeah, you have to do the quickest maths to.
11:33.00 | faster_horses | Ah, that was kind of like twenty five percent of your daily intake and like ah and I know and I you might as well. Just not bother. You know could like just to just you know soup is a good 1
11:42.39 | Nick | Yeah.
11:48.38 | faster_horses | You like a Cartton or a package of soup and you kind of like who a fifth of the pack is your day talking about my kit cats why I talking about your kick cats. Not yours exclusively Coco Other people can have cook kit gas and know she yeah.
11:52.50 | Mark | 10
11:59.21 | Mark | Yeah, yeah.
11:59.77 | Nick | She's like the she's like the Queen and swans all swans belong to the Queen all kit cats belong to.
12:07.86 | faster_horses | She's she's like um Google Adword she put a keyword in and she buts and she pops up so ah, have good I'll stop talking about kit cats now if you leave me alone. Okay.
12:08.49 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah.
12:11.31 | Nick | I.
12:20.32 | Mark | Well I think that that is a really interesting question. The whole label thing because you're absolutely right I think ah my my brother's girlfriend is vegan and the quickest way to identify whether something is vegan or not. Isn't but with a vegan label but it's when you have to check the ingredients and you have to see what's highlighted in bold because those are potential allergens and it just so happens that in the venn diagram that is ingredient like listing. Vegan stuff or non-vegan stuff. Sorry and they the allergens tend to be the same thing so apart from soy.
13:05.46 | Nick | Um, also a lot of lot of vegan stuff is an allergen right.
13:06.37 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
13:07.48 | Mark | Um, a lot of are the opposite. So yeah, if it's got Milkardd dairy of any kind it tends to be highlighted in bold. So the easiest way to find out is not by any kind of vegan specific labeling but by looking at what's available.
13:19.63 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
13:25.50 | Nick | But.
13:25.57 | Mark | Ah, looking at what's in the ingredients but there's ah, there's a more interesting 1 now because standardization is well. There isn't any. It's fucked when it comes to this sort of thing it takes it takes fucking forever to get any kind of standardization and now a lot of companies are starting to introduce.
13:39.45 | faster_horses | Um, ah.
13:44.91 | Mark | Um, carbon counting where you're packaging your your product will tell you basically the impact on your so-called Carbon footprint.
13:47.26 | faster_horses | Guess.
13:55.58 | Nick | I I I don't believe that that's accurate I Reckon that's bullshit that that accompanies carbon emissions a ara on their packaging like that. Yeah yeah.
13:55.81 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
13:59.90 | Mark | Well, what is it.
14:02.96 | faster_horses | Yeah.
14:06.27 | Mark | Oh right I thought you meant the facts that they're trying to do it was like um ah I'm just being whistleblow. Ah yeah, well it's it's just an extension of that that old and I mean climate change question is another 1
14:12.43 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, great. Great.
14:14.74 | Nick | Ah, global warming's bullshit. Ah.
14:24.38 | Mark | For another time but it's an extension of that old. Um, if the company puts it on the packaging. It's no longer their responsibility. It's up to you to make that decision. Um, and it's yeah, it's that's a misappropriation I think it a problem.
14:32.11 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:32.27 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, there's there's There's a ah kind of I not on labelings stuff like there's there's nice advert I think it's is it um bestow or something like that Great gravy granules.
14:48.12 | Mark | Um, but again my.
14:50.76 | Nick | Um, the gravy granules are available.
14:52.17 | faster_horses | And it's ah yeah, um, but and it's kind of like this ah kind of like ah a grandmother of a family and she's blind and she's got a Braille sticker on on the gravy tub to know it's kind of like. Ah, bestow or you know, kind of gravy and things like that I you just think like if that's the effort. Why not just incorporate that in your packaging full stop. They don't have Braille of the packaging and so they have to have a sticker but then they advertise it in a way that.
15:18.95 | Nick | Or so they don't have Braille on their packaging. Ah.
15:30.26 | faster_horses | You know, kind of like oh if you know and she does all this cooking and and but you know just have brighter labels on cottons and things like that. But that.
15:34.13 | Mark | How funny would that advert be if it turned out that the only thing she got right about that recipe was the use of the gravy granules or it did in fact, turn out that she was like making strawberries and cream.
15:42.44 | faster_horses | Um.
15:49.10 | Nick | But.
15:50.62 | faster_horses | Um, she she was actually making a source for sushi. So so ah so and of but yeah, just like.
15:51.62 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:56.32 | Nick | Um, or as it.
16:06.50 | faster_horses | And and you find a lot in kind of like um, advertising and they go kind of like um I think I think um, personal and a lot of laundry deter ah doing it now kind of like and they say like. Ah, we we source you know our plastic in our bottles is renewable when you see the small print on the text and it's kind of like forty percent of the packaging is is like from renewable sources and you think well,, that's not what you're saying in the adver if you don't read.
16:27.88 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:35.66 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
16:39.71 | faster_horses | Those small print and its whole kind of light is so ah is it. It is isn't it but gone. Yeah.
16:45.13 | Nick | That's the art of advertising in it. But that's this is the thing that really I'm going to go off on a ah run in now but that this is the thing that really fucks me off about like companies doing this stuff and people praising them for it. They're not doing it because they care about.
16:48.48 | Mark | Oh.
17:02.49 | Nick | The environment or they care about blind people or people with any disability or they're doing it because you care about those things and they want to increase the or retain their market share by appearing to give a shit and people talk about them on social media and buy their products.
17:05.86 | Mark | Amendment.
17:19.67 | Nick | Not doing it for the right reasons not doing because they want to cut down their emissions or the carbon footprint or how much plastic or paper they're using they're doing it because you care about those things and you're looking for brands that embrace your your personal beliefs about these things.
17:32.57 | Mark | Exactly exactly.
17:34.53 | faster_horses | Yeah, and I do I do think can light boards do care about this kind of thing and kind of like leadership but then change in that whole culture and ah yeah, no.
17:44.52 | Nick | ah ah ah I think in certain businesses definitely but I don't think the leadership and the boards of nestle give a shit about any of that because on the 1 hand the reducing what a soup the the putting soup in cardboard containers.
18:01.93 | Mark | The 1
18:02.94 | Nick | On reducing the size of the container by 25 percent but on the other hand the like cutting down entire forest in Argentina to make to make like rapeseed oil or you know whatever like they they don't care and there's always however, much companies like this do stuff like that. it's it's good obviously it's good
18:08.96 | Mark | Yeah, exactly.
18:11.83 | faster_horses | Yeah area.
18:22.85 | Nick | In like in a gross total but they can always It's always done to the least amount they can get away with it's not the maximum they can do because there's always so much more they can do than what they're doing. It's like when they bring out. Um. Bring out like refills for the plastic bottle that you've already got so it's like ah a washing up detergent or something like that and you buy the bottle the first time and then the second time you buy a refill and you like add water to it and put it in the existing bottle. You've already got and it's like well the still made out of plastic. You still.
18:42.63 | faster_horses | Oh yeah.
18:55.49 | Mark | Of me. Yeah, yeah.
18:58.12 | faster_horses | Yeah.
18:59.60 | Nick | Still sold me the first 1 in the first place and the reason that you've not made that bottle smaller is because if you did that your bottle would be smaller than everyone else's on the shelf and people and that would run the risk of people buying your competitors over yours. So again, it always comes down to capitalism over.
19:07.70 | faster_horses | Yes.
19:18.79 | Nick | Like cutting down plastics and saving the planet.
19:19.00 | faster_horses | Um, is it interesting. But yeah.
19:19.89 | Mark | For now till such a time as it becomes more lucrative somehow to severe environmentally valid. Um.
19:25.61 | Nick | Yeah, well that's it. That's when the scales tip in it. That's the only reason it worked when people literally Boycott things where it's like if your bottle is any bigger than this. Then we're going to. We're going to stop buying it basically an endel care.
19:40.58 | Mark | And but even then again, the onus is on the consumer. The responsibility there is on the consumer rather than the organization itself.
19:49.83 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
19:50.89 | faster_horses | Which it shouldn't have to be that hard should it and in you know, New X designed. You know, kind of we talk about a lot of kind of like ah giving the consumer choices but also kind of like taking the the complexity and and those choices out of kind of like. You know so you want to give them choices when they need to and yet packaging does not do any of that good Ux design or anything like that. Um.
20:16.73 | Nick | Ah, have you ever seen that famous video of the guy tratle opened the new milk card on like Australian Tv have you seen that It's so good that is that is exactly like perfectly sums up like.
20:20.80 | Mark | Oh yes, oh that video is brilliant.
20:23.64 | faster_horses | I yeah.
20:34.85 | Nick | Design versus Usability or user interaction in it is so good I don't not sure what you'd have to Google like listeners at home to ah to find that but it's something like it's on a talk show wouldn't it.
20:37.57 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
20:44.13 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, and he's he's he spends about a minute fighting with this ah milk. Carton.
20:46.20 | faster_horses | Um, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:55.99 | Nick | Yeah, so if you if you Google For example, revolutionary milk cart and demonstrated on Austrian Tv That's that's the video. It's absolutely incredible and by the end of it. It just ends up like cutting the edge of the corner of the car enough that just pouring it and in it's just like.
21:14.30 | Mark | Yeah, they not been like you designed this and then didn't put any milk in it until the dyke before it went on there should.
21:14.76 | Nick | Absolutely did you not Ted did you not try this backstage before you came on tv with it. It's amazing.
21:27.20 | Nick | Yeah, that's the thing So that's it in it like they had done all the maths the La done all the light modeling and stuff like that. But probably at no point did they actually fill it with milk and see if it poured. Yeah.
21:28.60 | faster_horses | Ah, live.
21:34.54 | Mark | Um, say actually works.
21:36.95 | faster_horses | Um, ah into I was watching a yeah I think it was Net Netflix Um, it was impossible baking impossible. It was bacon ear in and what they did they combined engineers with bakers.
21:49.43 | Nick | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
21:55.43 | faster_horses | Ah, like some of those that kind had to make robots out of cakes or things like that and like where I is television. It's kind. It's kind of family friendly television. And yeah I bought the.
21:59.51 | Mark | That's rocky television is it right? Okay, go on, do go on so are books.
22:04.58 | Nick | That's streaming.
22:10.24 | faster_horses | Wherever they fell down on those kind of like um, engineering processes because they never tested it so they just kind of built something and then all of a sudden they expect it to work. Yeah I know when they're kind of like where's the testing.
22:19.46 | Nick | Um, so this will work. Um.
22:21.63 | Mark | I'm gonna hit here.
22:26.81 | faster_horses | Um, but anyway going back to packaging I think there's there's a massive dishonesty in packaging and like Chris packets are kind of um and a lot of it is ah about shelf. Presence isn't it and Chris packets are a real.
22:35.40 | Nick | Um, the.
22:39.83 | Mark | Yeah.
22:41.46 | Nick | Um, yeah.
22:46.37 | faster_horses | Ah, dishonest products and I and just kind of like either. You've got got a size of it and I think that there's a I think there's a bit of nostalgia about Chris Packets and kind of how much she used to have in a crisp packet.
22:48.18 | Nick | Um, yeah.
22:48.53 | Mark | He's interesting. Go go on go on.
22:59.98 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
23:05.73 | faster_horses | And now you only have like a tiny amount because the price kind of has stayed the same over the last 20 years but obviously costs cost to manufacturing have gone up so to get the price. The same sizes have decreased but packaging hasn't to give you that kind of sense that you've got.
23:13.72 | Nick | Roughly.
23:25.11 | faster_horses | The the same amount you did have ten fifteen 20 years ago and that's a real dishonest. Um.
23:31.64 | Nick | You do you remember when? um, it went around that people suspected Cabras cream eggs had got smaller and Cabaris came out and said it's not the eggs that have got smaller. It's you your hands have got bigger.
23:38.43 | faster_horses | Ah, to yeah yeah.
23:47.30 | Nick | And and for like a couple of years people were like oh it's because it's because his hands have got bigger. We're not children anymore. It's because our hand and then someone was like all right? Well I found an old cream egg in the attic and you're lying because it's fucking massive.
23:48.95 | faster_horses | Yeah, ah.
23:56.50 | Mark | Yeah, it's like an offsre jeg.
23:58.66 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, ah it was it I am I kind of turned over and ah there was kind of like a history of chocolate.
24:03.43 | Nick | Um, yeah, wheeling it in like you extonbola.
24:16.90 | faster_horses | On I think it was channelel five and I watched like two minutes because that's about ah the the air timer I can give channel five per year so ah and it was about toberone and the size of toberone and interest inly toberone. Um.
24:18.40 | Mark | Well yeah, yeah.
24:19.97 | Nick | Um, all you could say are.
24:35.43 | faster_horses | To rome's now a massive aren't they um, but originally when they were first met they were really tiny because they were a luxury chocolate and they cost a lot of money to yeah.
24:43.42 | Nick | Ah, right? Yeah yeah I remember him being luxury. Yeah, like really had to get old of as well. That's why you only ever got them in the airport on the way home from all of the.
24:52.71 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, um, but then kind of like size sizes. Now you can buy like a bloody fifty Quids Toboro I Ah yeah, ah.
24:53.89 | Mark | The Totalroden tax.
25:00.46 | Nick | Yeah, you could literally kill a man with its all run. You could be. You could be a like an intruder to death with a tober run and then eat the evidence I've not thought about this before honest.
25:01.18 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, um, that's it. That's it.
25:11.80 | faster_horses | Yeah, it's but just ah, good, hilarious. But um, but yeah and it was all to do with the the markets and the size of the packages and things like that I think we we still do that a lot.
25:13.15 | Mark | Or no, no no I was I I Inna smith.
25:27.73 | Nick | Um, yeah.
25:31.66 | faster_horses | Um, and it's um, that this this it just it just bugs me that the dishonesty of the packaging now and or the all the naming of stuff like you like you can get like snickers fun size and kind like you know, kind of like yeah or.
25:38.31 | Nick | Oh to add.
25:42.78 | Mark | Um, yeah, let's that was for about less chocolate. Yeah.
25:51.26 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, but ah.
25:53.71 | Nick | Um, ah like a snickers sharer and it's like it's not a sharer. There's just 2 of them in the packet. Yeah of I've got a knife. Um I can do that myself. Thanks.
25:55.53 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah I know ah which which are um I knew of like snack size and and things like that just to kind of like.
25:56.77 | Mark | Yeah, you just split it in Half.
26:12.85 | faster_horses | Just so they can put them on offer and make them as ah, but but.
26:14.10 | Nick | But what's the so. What's the full size 1 That's a meal is it if a snack size is a snack. Yeah family of ah.
26:15.71 | Mark | Yeah, that ah serves four I think there's I think there's a when it comes to the chris packet thing. You know the the air in Chris packets I think there's a really interesting um thing that's arisen out of that now which is that people. Will go for crisps that are you know? well rather they won't go for deflated crisp packets because thats tends to be indicative of of of crushed crispsps are.
26:43.40 | faster_horses | Day. Yeah, yeah.
26:48.22 | Nick | I was going to say. Do you think that helps the actual shipping of the crisp if there's air in the packet. The do it.
26:51.96 | Mark | I imagine ah to be honest I imagine that might be why why they do it in 1 part and then um or why they started off doing it and then as time gone by so all conveniently we can keep the same amount of air.
26:54.43 | faster_horses | We Yeah yeah yeah.
27:02.70 | Nick | Ah, yeah.
27:08.10 | Mark | And just take out a few crisps every time and no 1 notices they'll eventually you get 3 in ah and up in a pack.
27:10.82 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, ah I think um I I find this whole thing. Um so dark Ux we have to do an episode on Dark Ux Um, yeah, and.
27:16.33 | Nick | A 1 big 1
27:23.17 | Mark | We will? yeah.
27:24.58 | Nick | Ah, could talk about all day.
27:29.47 | faster_horses | I think a lot of pack and design fits nicely into dark you he and that kind of subdifuge um I thinking of going back to the crisp packets. Um, 1 of my favorite chrisp packets to on Twitter was somebody had 1 crisp in their packet.
27:32.45 | Nick | Um, yeah.
27:46.73 | Nick | Just 1 massive 1 Ah I just made that joke. But that's a real thing apparently do you know? that's how ah sorry paul.
27:49.24 | faster_horses | 1 1 massive chris color that sort that is a real fig. Um, and you just see no no I and just think kind of like you know and like someone so a disappointments on chris ah.
27:49.79 | Mark | Let me have course it is because it is.
28:04.63 | Nick | I Don't know how would feel about that like which what would you do? would you break it up back into the packet and then eat him again like they just yeah like a chipmunk. Awesome. Ah.
28:07.90 | faster_horses | Ah.
28:11.62 | faster_horses | I Don't know I nibble around it I'd say yeah.
28:15.16 | Mark | Well, it depends because how big is big and is it 1 of those situations where when you have something on that scale. It starts to go a bit funky somehow it starts to go like if you um, yeah I'll try to think of something similar. But.
28:26.11 | faster_horses | Oh yes.
28:33.71 | Mark | Occasionally, you'll be very tempted when you see go to buy a fresh apple which I know and ah everyone does very regularly. You'd be tempted to go for the biggest and the reddest but typically I mean I remember my dad did that did this once got this really big Bright red apple took a bite into it and the thing we're fucking rotten.
28:37.47 | faster_horses | Ah.
28:52.65 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, ah.
28:52.73 | Mark | And that's why it was so red so you know I reckon that kind of thing might happen if you had I mean ah a potato the size of your head that so been made made into 1 crisp.
28:54.93 | Nick | Um, filled with Maggots that's why it was so big. Ah, that's grib.
29:09.10 | Nick | It with it just a head that's covered in mud from someone who worked 1 of the field workers was involved in a terrible accident ah talking about giant crisps segue did you know that's how conflict started originally.
29:12.48 | faster_horses | No.
29:19.74 | faster_horses | The a f.
29:27.24 | Nick | That's why the cold conflicts used to get 1 huge like flake and then you'd Breakck it up into the bowl and then cover it in milk. That's that's why the originally called conflicts and they were invented by an ah an american.
29:27.68 | Mark | Oh yes.
29:34.26 | Mark | Yeah, with m.
29:43.80 | Nick | Religious fanatic who invented it to stop people masturbating that was his logic apparently to keep the hands busy.
29:45.83 | faster_horses | Ah.
29:46.97 | Mark | What a fucking pervert I mean ah think cabode it. He's dedicated more of his time and money to the masturbation question. That any man reasonably has in his life.
30:05.23 | faster_horses | Ah.
30:05.56 | Nick | I see I would argue that all of human endeavor contributed to by men is some kind of ah tactical way to stop themselves of a masur bit in the entire human endeavor.
30:11.34 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah, ah.
30:12.80 | Mark | Ah, yeah.
30:18.73 | Mark | Ah, moon.
30:24.54 | Nick | Is a series of stratagems concocted by men to stop them masate just to keep their and busy. So like yeah the Apollos sp ish missions are just a bunch of men just like what can we do? What can we build a rock mind.
30:25.27 | Mark | Yeah, just to keep the hands busy and that's why that's why all Rocket ships are so phallic. Yeah.
30:32.10 | faster_horses | Um, this yeah.
30:41.36 | Nick | Yeah, a huge pain as and Blas it in the space. So yeah, um, anyway, bringing it back on top it. So I don't know if this is I don't know if this is topical. Oh or if it's technically to do with like the ux of packaging but something I've noticed quite a lot recently is.
30:44.85 | Mark | Oh.
30:45.62 | faster_horses | Um, ah god.
30:59.35 | Nick | If some if some packaging is not recyclable. The word in that they've started to use on packages now is not currently recyclable as if that's our fault for not figuring out how to recycle this but it's all right? So sorry guys we'll we'll figure this situation out for you.
31:05.95 | Mark | Yeah of them. Yeah.
31:07.75 | faster_horses | Um, yes, or you.
31:18.89 | Nick | As soon as we possibly can but you keep pumping out this non-recyclable plastic and ah leave it up to us to solve the problem.
31:19.33 | Mark | Oh yeah, nothing.
31:22.34 | faster_horses | Would I feel like that's kind of blame on local government or central government as well in kinda like like your recycling plants are not fit for recycling my products you know come on.
31:36.11 | Mark | Yeah, not not the other way around.
31:37.78 | Nick | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but.
31:40.63 | faster_horses | Catch up with my catch up with my products and things like that and yeah and it's weird isn't it because like what you were saying about kind like getting apples and things like that and my what 50 years ago packaging wasn't like this whatsoever and in this.
31:55.39 | Nick | Wait was all made out of paper where it like cardboard. Yeah.
31:59.24 | faster_horses | Yeah, it's all been on paper can like you'd have fresh fruit and veg and things like that and you know you could be able to choose and see exactly what you were buying ah but then over the last fifty years. We've kind of like in a short space of time filled a bloody planet with like shit that's going to be like.
32:14.14 | Mark | Yeah, um, apparently apparently um I mean this was a headline. My brother said to me over the table yesterday evening. So heavy citation needed. Um, but apparently yeah microplastics can now kind of.
32:17.34 | faster_horses | Live longer than generations.
32:33.15 | Mark | Go from your ah bloodstream into your brain thus it's been observed in I think in rats that Microfiber at macrofiber. No, that's glasses cloths um, have been conditioned but microplastics are now able to.
32:47.71 | faster_horses | Ah, this.
32:51.81 | Mark | But not now able to but we phone that they're in our brands which is which is great but the the other side of this to play to play Devil's advocate is that that plastic is still better at preserving our food than paper was and especially when you're in developing countries.
32:54.87 | faster_horses | Wow.
32:58.19 | Nick | Which is great.
33:00.59 | faster_horses | Yeah, that.
33:11.48 | Mark | Um, you know countries with ah just less kind of money about shall we say? Yeah yeah, they absolutely depend on these things and we have to remember that it's kind of our privileges as you know people in the first world to turn around and say oh well we had our time with it.
33:12.36 | faster_horses | Yeah.
33:16.97 | Nick | Um, infrastructure.
33:31.37 | Mark | But you can't use it where you're developing um stuff like that. So but there is 1 philosophical question which is how do you open your blister pack with the scissors inside.
33:33.47 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
33:36.27 | faster_horses | Yeah.
33:46.62 | Nick | Oh my God Yeah I bought this pair of scissors because I need to cut things open and now I need a pair of scissors to cut this open Oh the hours of my life I've wasted ranting about that exact.
33:47.92 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, that's ah.
33:48.90 | Mark | Ah.
33:53.76 | Mark | It to.
34:00.29 | Mark | Um.
34:04.79 | faster_horses | Well I now verb at.
34:05.10 | Nick | Exact problem. But what are they? what are you doing what you thinking? What are you thinking? Why have you put them in that packaging is it? Ah, ah, do they have to do that because the scissors do you have to put them in like difficult to open packaging because they like contain sharp blitz.
34:08.53 | Mark | And that's it.
34:18.10 | Mark | I Don't think so because reserlairs tend to be and really really simple. Quite easy to walk on packaging For example, um I think it's just because vacuum farming is a very easy way to to package stuff.
34:25.46 | Nick | There.
34:26.50 | faster_horses | Yeah.
34:34.58 | Nick | It's It's a very easy way to get him in in the packaging. Not so much the other end.
34:35.81 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, but obviously that part of the process was a good city just and it's.
34:38.42 | faster_horses | Yeah now.
34:43.48 | Nick | But it should be That's the thing like any any product should is I don't know it just the manufacturing process predates the idea of U X I think that it that's the that's the point.
34:43.77 | faster_horses | Where.
34:53.38 | Mark | Yeah, and and a lot of people I think when it comes to the Ux of packaging. Well though there just isn't much consideration for the journey. There's consideration for the packaging itself. But ah, it feels like very few people and I think it starts out to change now. Um.
34:55.96 | faster_horses | Four.
35:05.53 | Nick | Um, yeah.
35:13.27 | Mark | But very few people when they're ah in Productt designer in pack in design think about the process from the factory floor to being regularly used by ah the the user by the customer.
35:22.67 | faster_horses | Yeah.
35:28.50 | Nick | So this brings me on to the point I was just about to make absolutely expertly So have you guys got any fairly recent examples of a good packaging open experience in terms of ux.
35:40.60 | Mark | So my favorite and this is quite simple. Um is when I get when you get books or anything like this and you just pull the tab. It's felt made out a paper and cardboard. You pull the tab it rather sat satisfactionily.
35:41.62 | faster_horses | Up.
35:53.17 | faster_horses | Yeah, oh yeah.
35:58.44 | Mark | Ri stone opposite up side your book coatat and then you just throw the cardboard away. Ah, yeah, yeah, but I I don't get my books from and from Amazon I get them from water storms. Um, typically so 1 kind of 1 can gomer it over another.
36:03.33 | Nick | Is that like the Amazon packaging that that never works for me right.
36:10.50 | faster_horses | Ah.
36:17.42 | Nick | I think there I think there actually might be the same thing make because I'm pretty sure Amazon started as the the home delivery branch of waterstones I remember I remember? Yeah yeah.
36:17.47 | Mark | Um.
36:25.41 | Mark | I know they started off as a book service. But yeah, it'd be just my luck if if if I like cogresly trying to not give Jeff all of my money and in the process proceeded to give him all of my money.
36:36.33 | faster_horses | Yeah. Um.
36:41.71 | Nick | Yeah I'm I'm pretty sure that I'm pretty sure they're probably still in bed with each of us because they certainly were Amazon used to deliver their books.
36:46.92 | Mark | Well, the other side of this so that that's that's 1 that's I think quite user, friendly, but there is a bookshop in Manchester an independent bookshop called queer li and it's is specialized in Queer literature. Um. And so I got a couple of books delivered from there and whilst it was perhaps not as intuitive. It was actually far more delightful because what happened and is they'd wrapped each book in tissue paper and had branded stickers and stuff like that and there was I think there was a handwritten card just saying. Thank you for ordering.
37:12.72 | faster_horses | Um, thus.
37:23.23 | faster_horses | So.
37:25.33 | Mark | Um, and so I think you've got the spectrum where opening that it was pretty standard from a usability perspective but because it had those personal touches personal touches I was invested in as someone who chore to shop at this independent Bookshop. There was a ah. Ah, considerable payoff for me. Um, and yeah each book had they gave me free stuff with it as well. So each book had like it a bookmark in the front set front of it already and stuff like that all themed around queer literature. So I'd say usability.
37:52.41 | faster_horses | Um, ah, nice.
38:01.15 | faster_horses | Um, like it.
38:04.10 | Mark | Um, 1 hand is good and important. But I find a lot of delight in in certain experiences.
38:10.24 | faster_horses | Yeah I'm I'm a I'm a big fan of naked products. Um, and again going back to not? yeah ah.
38:16.73 | Mark | Oh really and welcome welcome to faster horses after dark at three minutes to 10 this morning.
38:19.63 | Nick | No explanation needed I.
38:30.10 | faster_horses | But so so I I am going to explain in this it? Um, so catalog I I Ah my shamp I I buy shampoo bars. No packaging necessary and they could they come as kind like ah, a solid disc.
38:32.30 | Mark | Ah.
38:34.50 | Nick | Um.
38:48.63 | faster_horses | Of light and then you just rubbed out in your hair. No plastics ah similar things with soaps and things that a big fan of kind of like lush and you could have go in you can smell you can kind of it's a sensory experience and. You kind of know what you gain in as well and you know they kind of make things look nice and have that kind of like sensory and kind of like it's good for cocoa as well because she goes in and they put a Bathbo in like a sink and you can go see it and test it out and she goes wooo let's have 50 bath bombs.
39:14.75 | Mark | And um.
39:15.67 | Nick | 10
39:22.59 | faster_horses | Ah, and then like nine hundred pounds later you come out Well that's good. Um, but I think um I've noticed credit cards or can especially the Challenger Banks I've started doing Apple type.
39:23.81 | Mark | Yeah, um.
39:41.53 | faster_horses | Ah, packaging which is nice and you kind of open it and it slides either way and like you pull 1 end and it gives you a nice light message and kind of like you know, kind of like promote in the service and the other sides of the card and those little touchches I think.
39:47.67 | Mark | Um, we will.
39:58.50 | faster_horses | A really nice and kind of give you this kind of like sense of belonging to a brand over you know, kind of like ah the the boring and the the dull packaging or or the packaging that you can't read the text because they've put pink right in on purple.
40:13.20 | Mark | Yeah, and.
40:17.50 | faster_horses | Backgrounds and yeah and it's just think about those things. Um and and I was reading the co-op release a new version of their design system. It's all out in and the open um and they say as part of their testing every. 5 people they test 1 has to have a disability ah which is really nice to kind of like you know, think about you know if it and kind of we've said this loads with accessibility and on the path if it works for those people who have a disability it works for everybody.
40:36.32 | Mark | Now. Yeah.
40:50.59 | Mark | Um, yeah Mary you.
40:52.70 | Nick | Yeah, yeah.
40:54.46 | faster_horses | So why? not just do that by default and and and those kind of things are really nice and I like the the physical the tactile stuff I think Apple have um testers on on their packaging and it has to open within. Ah, certain amount. It's like optimum like twenty seconds or something so when you pull it open drops down and it's within twenty seconds so it gives you enough time for anticipation but not too long for kind of frustration.
41:23.23 | Nick | I was I was gonna use Apple probably as my example because recently I can't think of anything of a fan particular good. You x of delight in unpackaging but my brain always goes to apple because it is it is 1 of the best.
41:24.17 | Mark | See Yeah, so you don't get bored.
41:42.89 | Nick | And I was going to say like you know when you open a new Apple product and you lift the lid up and the inside of the packaging like slowly because of the vacuum created in the packaging. It slowly falls out and then drops on the table. So apparently the design that in that's like an intended.
41:45.98 | faster_horses | Now.
41:55.90 | faster_horses | Yeah.
42:01.80 | Nick | Method of opening the packaging. It's not just something people have figured out by grabbing the lid like idiots and lifting it up and it dropping out. They actually do that on purpose because it's safely like cushions like you say it's the nice anticipation of it dropping out but it's also like a safe way of opening.
42:03.76 | Mark | Um.
42:09.24 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
42:19.56 | Nick | Packaging if you just lift the lid off it just like drops out and potentially damages whatever it is. You're opening but you know so you know they do that on purpose because the more risky stuff like some of the newer phones and stuff like that. Don't do that or they do it much much slower because.
42:20.14 | Mark | You do? yeah.
42:23.47 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
42:37.77 | Nick | The risk of it dropping out could damage the phone and they like design more of a vacuum in the packaging I think that's that's crazy. That's like taking the process to to extremes that you could only really expect from from a company like apple.
42:39.50 | faster_horses | Yeah.
42:44.58 | faster_horses | Um, yeah.
42:50.85 | Mark | Yeah, and the cup.
42:54.41 | faster_horses | Definitely who.
42:54.47 | Nick | That's why like the people who try and do what Apple do will never you can copy the aesthetic which a lot of people do like was watching ah was it like a samsung advert or something last last night and like it always looks like if you buy.
42:59.39 | Mark | And I.
43:04.80 | faster_horses | They are.
43:10.47 | Nick | An apple showroom on wish it's always it's always there it's like the uncanny valley of of Apple it's it's almost you can see what the try to do but they'll never get there and it's because it's because of things like that the the copying the not innovating. They're not thinking. They're just looking over there and like taking notes it's like.
43:13.28 | Mark | Um, yeah.
43:15.11 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
43:22.73 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh I did earlier in the year I did have another nice packaging experience I brought a new tv and.
43:28.60 | Mark | Um, and.
43:29.70 | Nick | Copy Apple's own work but make it look like you didn't cheat.
43:41.64 | faster_horses | What was quite nice about it. The packaging became the way to handle the Tv so you didn't put your fingerprints on the Tv So that the sides of the packaging ah became kind of like handles to put the Tv on its stand and then lift it onto where you were going to put it and that.
43:46.80 | Nick | Ah, okay.
43:55.33 | Nick | Oh that's cool. What Brand was it.
44:00.97 | faster_horses | Ah, some so ah, just so but when you when you said that you reminded me of it but they and they kind of they had handles of it and it kind of then you you kind of revealed it away to.
44:04.91 | Nick | I.
44:08.45 | Mark | I.
44:09.55 | Nick | Right.
44:18.51 | faster_horses | And it was for it was the packaging was all functional which I felt was a really nice twist. Yeah.
44:23.42 | Nick | That's that's really cool. That's actually reminded me of of a good example but being disappointed so quite recently I bought a super seventy 3 more um electric bike and I was looking at people unpackaging them on the internet.
44:34.37 | faster_horses | Yeah.
44:38.94 | Nick | And they were all majority of the examples were in America and 1 of the unpackaging videos. He did it from like obviously from the box and I was I was really impressed with how they'd done. It. So the the package was in 2 pieces and it was like the bottom piece with the bike sign it. And then like the top piece was like the cover that went over the whole thing so it was a bit like a giant apple box where you lift the top off and the hand holes they had four handholds 2 in the front 2 under back and in the hand holes there were like plastic inserts and you pull those plastic inserts out.
44:58.87 | faster_horses | Yeah.
45:12.78 | faster_horses | Are.
45:15.54 | Nick | So those are your hand holes you pull them out. It's got plastic inserts so you don't hurt your hands on the can but cardboard pull us out and then that just frees up the entire box and to lift the top off and then 1 side of the box folds down like a drawbridge and you just wheel the bike out and I was like that's amazing. The.
45:23.80 | faster_horses | Nice.
45:34.90 | Nick | Thought about that whole process for for the user on the other end to open this big cumbersome like bike by themselves because it might not have someone that they can like lift the box the bike out with they might live by themselves or they might be like might have some kind of disability so I was like that's his I can't wait to do that and film it myself.
45:34.12 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
45:49.75 | Mark | Move on.
45:53.57 | Nick | And like talk about it because it'd be some nice content when the bike came to england and the first thing I did was like set my cameras up and stuff and I was like right? where are the handhold things I was like oh ah, that are there and I looked at the I looked at the pack. It was just a box.
46:03.90 | Mark | Ah. The.
46:11.20 | faster_horses | Um, ah.
46:12.61 | Nick | Where I had to cut I had to cut the top open and like unfold the 4 things and then get drew to help me lift the bike out and I was like why the hell have they done that and I could what from what I can tell is they've got european models and it's either for some reason a different box for the european model.
46:17.48 | Mark | Oh my God now.
46:18.80 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah.
46:32.41 | Nick | Or you only get the nice unboxing experience when you buy the most expensive bike that they do and the 1 I got was like 1 of the lower ones ah thought that was really disappointing so shame on you super seventy 3 oh I'm a bike's broken as well. So that's another yeah.
46:40.37 | Mark | Is a shame that position. Absolutely absolutely oh fucking out that lasted long because that lasted all or ten minutes oh that's good. Yeah yeah, furiously peddling.
46:40.71 | faster_horses | I.
46:48.38 | faster_horses | Um, ah oh no, ah the ah shit I am so.
46:51.70 | Nick | The batteryter is knackered on it. It keeps switching off as I'm crossing the road in front of wagons. So that's good. Yeah, not in anywhere.
47:07.53 | Nick | Oh you ex Stubola it's time to see what's going on inside you and me you ex stumble. Ah.
47:07.64 | faster_horses | Ah, saw my shoex tombola time. Ah.
47:15.11 | Mark | I think I think I'll going back to bed. Let mark steeler look after this 1 Ah.
47:20.77 | faster_horses | Um, 1 are.
47:24.17 | Nick | Ah, sorry to anybody's ears.
47:31.21 | faster_horses | Ah, nice, nice. Ah, it's good. So he's got the tombola machine.
47:36.90 | Mark | Oh it's ah it so I sitting it in Nick spar bedroom as usual or as we call it my my room. My room.
47:41.87 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, yeah, okay.
47:46.79 | Nick | Marks Marks room All alert I'll just lean off and get it if you and get the sound the sound effects ready right? ready that.
47:50.39 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's ready help you spin.
47:54.39 | Mark | All right? yep.
48:00.90 | Mark | I Don't think once I don't think once this is this is gone off. Well, it's like some kind of temporal shift because it's always delayed.
48:03.54 | faster_horses | Um, ah the ah I think I think you need a bit of kind of like oil in on the yeah.
48:10.72 | Nick | Ah, ah.
48:20.37 | Nick | Need to oil my tumbola. Yeah well it is only 10 o'clock.
48:22.49 | faster_horses | Um, the machine. Yeah, it's a bit stiff to start with I think ah and that's so perhaps we need to Mr Kellogg needs some solution for that.
48:26.14 | Mark | Well, that's it and that's it.
48:35.38 | Nick | I Believe I've just ah, leaning in getting the piece of paper. So today's ux tombbola is the ux of a shark.
48:38.60 | Mark | All right? What? Ah what are we talking about today.
48:40.25 | faster_horses | Um, help.
48:49.93 | faster_horses | Oh.
48:51.14 | Mark | Ux of a shark I'm immediately going to go in with the old James Bond Shark the old. We're not James Bonds Shark but the the the villainous kind of pool of sharks that for some reason James Bond Villains insist on having.
49:04.30 | Nick | Ah, yeah, with fricking laser beams on their heads. Yeah.
49:07.42 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and I want to understand that decision making process where the most effective way to kill a spy who may or may not come through this door.
49:08.80 | faster_horses | Um.
49:24.66 | Mark | Is a pool of sharks that is for the most part covered and for just such the occasion exactly and the management that's needed to maintain exotic animals within your your lair.
49:30.30 | Nick | Ah, for just such an occasion.
49:40.90 | Nick | Just fee.
49:42.59 | Mark | Which is either in a volcano which arguably a bit too warm or the Swiss alps are something arguably a bit too cold. Yeah yeah, yeah.
49:49.33 | Nick | Yeah, well you had to you had to ship in all these sharks I mean it's just the very ostentatious lifestyle of being a Bo villain that it's like it wouldn't surprise me if you had a well-maintained pool of sharks in your apartment mark.
49:53.74 | faster_horses | Let me.
49:58.60 | Mark | I Guess So yeah, yeah.
50:00.29 | faster_horses | I.
50:05.31 | Mark | Well I don't expect you to to listen. Mr. Bomb Mr. Tomlinson.
50:05.50 | faster_horses | Like yeah ah, ah.
50:08.56 | Nick | It just.
50:15.62 | Nick | I Expect you to die.
50:15.67 | faster_horses | Ah, it is is is it the whole Hollywood has villainized sharks in in general and oh.
50:22.56 | Mark | The have of the have.
50:23.20 | Nick | Yeah I was watching this thing I was watching this thing on Netflix right? and there was a guy who was talking about jaws right? It was a psychological. It was a psychology program or something like that. It was fucking hilarious. So this guy is talking about jaws.
50:34.65 | faster_horses | Oh nice.
50:40.98 | Nick | And the the way that the music like reacts with your brain or something like that and it right arguably jaws the most famous theme tune of all time. Ah, if you say jaws nine times out of 10 someone will start humming the theme tune right? Everyone knows that everyone's heard it. Everyone knows of it's from.
50:47.30 | Mark | Yeah.
50:50.61 | faster_horses | Yeah.
50:52.90 | Mark | Yeah, did da da.
50:59.86 | Nick | And he goes good it it exactly because so he's talking about the Jaws theme tuner Now it has this effect and your brain and then it goes so you hear it you hear that initial tune and it goes de do dirt du du du did ah and I was like.
51:02.47 | faster_horses | Ah.
51:14.49 | Mark | Okay.
51:18.98 | Nick | That's not the jaws them chair it was. It's sung it like say Obviously it's much better when he does it but he sung it wrong. He sung it completely wrong like that it was the wrong. No and it went up. Yeah, probably.
51:21.60 | Mark | Ah, ah, ah so that we have got a license for it. Jeff so can you just hum this slightly off tune for us.
51:25.80 | faster_horses | Ah.
51:31.10 | faster_horses | Ah.
51:36.22 | Nick | It's probably I mean it wouldn't surprise me if that were the case. But yeah, he got it completely wrong like the rhythm was wrong and then the note was wrong and then it went up at the end instead of down. Yeah I was I was pissing myself was that you've completely shut all over your point there.
51:39.88 | Mark | For the catlips or Rhythm ja.
51:45.54 | faster_horses | Ah.
51:51.48 | Mark | Yeah, ah you act the sharks. Yeah yeah.
51:52.97 | faster_horses | Ah, the sharks. Yeah yeah, well a kind of like the bond villain and stuff like that and I think um, do jas. Yeah, um and it's like sharks are not.
51:53.76 | Nick | What the fuck we talking about oh ah Sharks hollywood hollywood hollywood is villainized sharks. Go go.
52:02.39 | Mark | Yes.
52:04.50 | Nick | And Joe's
52:12.52 | faster_horses | That dangerous are they and kind of like there's there's a whole kind of misconception that shocks it? Well yeah.
52:13.56 | Mark | But more people are killed by people than they arer by Sharks vi a considerable margin I think more people die on the toilet than you know are killed by sharks but that might be because there's a a shark angrily lurk with lurking around the car and I'm willing to batch the brains and that's that.
52:25.10 | Nick | Yeah.
52:26.97 | faster_horses | Definitely.
52:30.54 | faster_horses | Yeah, and and I like yeah the whole ah the whole premise of jaws while while nice as a kind of like a pseudo horror film. Um.
52:32.31 | Mark | You never know.
52:46.80 | faster_horses | Any animal in the wild would not exert that much effort to eat some people on a boat and like systematically target the same people over time.
52:50.42 | Nick | Yeah.
52:58.85 | Nick | Does he does he eat them. It's been a long time since the saw jaws is he is it implied that he eats them because they never find the bodies or does he just attack them.
53:05.79 | faster_horses | I eat I think the I think the eats some of them but not all I don't want to give the plot away. So yeah to.
53:13.97 | Nick | Because they certainly wouldn't spend that they wouldn't waste that much time and effort. Yeah spoiler alert for a fifty year old film. Um yeah I feel like they wouldn't exert that much energy to then not eat the thing as well.
53:16.52 | Mark | File or alert.
53:24.28 | faster_horses | Ah.
53:29.23 | Mark | Well, it's kind of like herb potato potato some Marto I'm here I might as well eat it might as well get a lovely little crunchy snack whilst I'm murderizing these human beings.
53:30.25 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
53:32.43 | Nick | Just to ah like to attack the spot.
53:38.57 | faster_horses | Um.
53:40.94 | Nick | Weldon So a lot of the time that people get bitten by sharks. It's because to to figure out what something is a shark bites it but to a soft human being in the sea.
53:50.20 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
53:51.68 | Mark | Just prodding. Yeah.
53:55.97 | Nick | Ah, Shark bite is is a little bit more than just a but yeah to the shark. That's all they're doing but to a person. It's like oh actually that's me leg off. So I so I think I put this um I think I put this 1 in the ux Tom bowler.
53:58.27 | faster_horses | Um, ah all I Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:04.93 | Mark | Yeah, oh my arm to go.
54:15.52 | Nick | And it's because of something that heard which is that the great white shark is 1 of the only creatures on earth that has never evolved it's from from the point of when it was but ah I mean it must have evolved to that point it didn't just materialize our thin air.
54:22.11 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
54:28.87 | Mark | From the point at which God made it. Yeah and it was good. Well yeah, conveniently and.
54:34.22 | Nick | Yes, let there be sharks and there were and it was good. Yeah, ah but yeah, apparently they've always yeah well yeah, but for a part apparently for millions of years like since the dinosaurs.
54:34.74 | faster_horses | Ah, area. Still yeah well I'd seen easier to explain than the science.
54:52.54 | Nick | Shark. Ah, the great white Shark has just been the same. It's never evolved. It's never because it is always been an efficient killing machine I thought that was fascinating.
54:53.69 | faster_horses | There? yeah.
54:57.15 | Mark | Well, it's not. It's not necessarily an efficient killing machine because that's there's more evolution evolution imperative but um, not much more admittedly and but yet it's always been perfectly fine in the environment. It's in.
55:00.11 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, ah.
55:05.23 | Nick | Well.
55:14.50 | Nick | Yeah, yeah, and not the and the interesting thing about that is not too good because if it was too good to be nothing to eat or catch there.
55:15.22 | Mark | Yeah.
55:20.71 | Mark | Yeah, that's it they would have extinct themselves I think there were another like number of examples of animals who basically killed themselves because well yeah I was just thinking that the true the true monsters.
55:24.48 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, yeah.
55:33.45 | faster_horses | For yeah.
55:33.66 | Nick | Humans doing the good job of it. That's the true. The true monsters were the friends we met along the way. Ah that living better.
55:39.25 | Mark | The true sharks for the yeah but did day to do that should be the yeah yeah.
55:42.39 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah, ah, but.
55:46.92 | Nick | And true sharks with the friends that we made along the way did did. That's the new jaws named you do do do do sorry.
55:51.53 | faster_horses | Ah, ah palla. Okay, ah um, yeah, um, fins the sharp fins. They're kind of iconic.
56:09.55 | Nick | Sorry I thought I thought you just se good to talking about people from Finland and but I'm with you might my bread genuinely. So what the fuck is he talking about. But yeah, right? Yeah, the fins on the back of sharks right? yeah.
56:09.92 | faster_horses | To sharks and they kind of become a.
56:12.39 | Mark | Are.
56:18.80 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, ah, ah, fins on the back of the shark here because they're kind of iconic towards um, kind of danger in water kind of like and and the whole things. But more. More than Sharks have fins a lot a lot of things and a lot of our engineering comes from nature I mean they could kind of like bo boats or upside down sharks just with the top hall and I would convey and gives that buoyancy and things like that and it's um.
56:41.54 | Mark | Um, of course and yeah.
56:43.23 | Nick | Um, yeah.
56:57.94 | Mark | Um, yeah I mean gosh everything would be Jellyfish ships. Um, because ah I mean sharks hardly do exist. No do there's a and.
56:58.25 | faster_horses | Symbolization of Sharks is a bit weird. Um, if Sharks didn't exist. What would we have.
57:05.30 | Nick | 2 too many fish.
57:12.52 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
57:13.50 | Mark | Many many varieties of them move extremely endangered and but it's in part because whatever we see 1 we panic and think we've got to shoot it ah and then so and sell its fins. Yeah sell the fins on the black market and.
57:26.30 | Nick | Even though people are cutting the fins off to make soup.
57:29.49 | faster_horses | Oh yeah.
57:32.81 | Mark | You know when you're approached about it. You say it's a shark I was frightened and everyone goes oh very good. It was a shark yes, go and kill 14000 more yeah Yeah
57:36.96 | faster_horses | Are.
57:39.60 | Nick | Yes, he spend spend a lot of time in the sea. Yeah I see you've got a number of fins there. You must spend a lot of time summing yourself within title wars way out way out Beyond like the point of reasonable.
57:43.20 | faster_horses | Yeah.
57:54.22 | Mark | I was talking to someone and I was telling me that there's a kind of shark. It's a species of Shark now living in the thames they've recently kind of and it's it's so it's 1 of those. It's technically a shark. It's actually a fish of quite reasonable size for a river.
57:57.14 | faster_horses | Yeah.
57:58.80 | Nick | But like.
58:02.84 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, yeah.
58:07.86 | Nick | Ah.
58:12.33 | Mark | Ah, like the thames like Mostl of london you know? Yeah well oh god can you imagine i'd.
58:12.80 | Nick | Um, and it it subsists entirely off jelly deals. Yeah, oh.
58:16.75 | faster_horses | Her and and and fatbergs. Ah.
58:27.70 | Mark | I'm not surprised if I was a shark and that's what I was living off I'd want to be end injured as well. Just oh well.
58:37.00 | faster_horses | Yeah, ah yeah Horrific I'm so what can we make instead of a shark or okay.
58:43.47 | Mark | Coward.
58:44.42 | Nick | I So I reckon we take a left turn here and instead of instead of it being something short related I think we should invent something to like give sharks the edge against porches and stuff.
58:57.82 | Mark | Um, yeah, yeah.
58:59.15 | faster_horses | Oh okay, but.
59:02.25 | Nick | Ah, can in fact that let's let's yeah, let's come up with an actual device that can help people help sharks not get the fins cough.
59:08.86 | faster_horses | I think I think this was solved in Austin Powers where they had the sharks with the lasers I attached the heads. Ah, but.
59:13.56 | Mark | We have million.
59:14.67 | Nick | With layers of beams on the heads. What what about? what could you drinking I was just consider could you make a prosthetic fin but they just kind of bleed to death before they get to that point. Don't they.
59:25.79 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, yeah, that said.
59:27.81 | faster_horses | Or I ah tell you what we could give them scissors to cut the way out of the net but just to piss them off. Give them scissors in blister packs and just yeah, yeah.
59:35.11 | Mark | But in blister pack. Yeah, it's true. It's from it rhymes. It's like poetry.
59:39.34 | Nick | Ah, it's come false a little. Ah, it's like Tene but better.
59:46.17 | faster_horses | Um, yeah, ah yeah, ah yeah.
59:48.89 | Mark | Ah.
59:51.78 | Nick | Um, if if anyone laughed at that joke by the way just give yourself a pattern the back for remembering a thing which is essentially what callback humor is I Love that. Thanks Thanks everyone. Brilliant.
59:56.98 | Mark | Yeah, moving.
01:00:05.99 | faster_horses | Oh yeah, maybe um on there the fins we could give them serrated edges so they could do it cut the way out nets.
01:00:13.19 | Mark | Oh yeah, Friendlin mines just covered the ocean in mines. Um.
01:00:13.35 | Nick | Oh yeah or light just minds, you know like the but the yeah that.
01:00:26.20 | faster_horses | Ah.
01:00:28.97 | Nick | Problem Solved I can't think of any negative side effects or just littering the ocean with mines. Yeah.
01:00:30.56 | Mark | No no, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah I was thinking Maybe what we could do because if it if it spells certain deaths for the shark Anyway, it might it might as well be ah well I'll take some of these bastards with me sort of thing and we just have extremely high. Um.
01:00:43.20 | Nick | Oh yeah.
01:00:49.50 | Mark | Impact high power ah bombs within the Shark's fins yeah, yeah and so when when the port and lops off the fin boom and problems solve. Well not for the shark of course.
01:00:54.39 | faster_horses | Shark Shark Nukes Oh God you you've just given them.
01:00:54.39 | Nick | Um, yeah.
01:01:02.27 | Nick | Cuts The fin.
01:01:03.41 | faster_horses | Ah, good you ah you yeah you, you've just given Trump a brand new campaign for his re-election. Yeah.
01:01:05.61 | Nick | Oh I guess I like that idea. Yeah.
01:01:07.78 | Mark | But yeah.
01:01:13.59 | Mark | Jesus part of a wing of space force or whatever. It's called.
01:01:20.84 | Nick | Yeah, Shark force we get it. We're gonna beginnna. We're gonna Booby trap all the sharks and we're gonna we're gonna make chain to pay for it.
01:01:22.98 | faster_horses | And good I could have.
01:01:34.12 | faster_horses | Ah, we can have put them across the Mexican border. Ah, ah yeah.
01:01:35.52 | Mark | I Dig a mot know. Yeah, oh yeah, that's that seems like something that would be responsibly haveabled. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:01:37.30 | Nick | Can yeah that's because that's what America needs highly explosive sharks guarding the border that'll deescalate the situation um shakes shakes you know.
01:01:49.00 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah.
01:01:55.19 | faster_horses | The.
01:01:56.67 | Nick | You know we need sharks. We got the best sharks where our sharks are more explosive than your sharks and we get to we get it everybody. Everybody says you have the best sharks.
01:01:59.40 | Mark | Um, as but it says so.
01:02:09.63 | faster_horses | Ah, ah, got yeah.
01:02:10.20 | Mark | Um, well he's kind of ceased to exist doesn't he in a sense I mean if of carves Yeah, that's ah, that's it with it with his laser sharks.
01:02:10.23 | Nick | I'm so glad that I've not had to do a donald trump impression for like a new like a year now fuck that guy. But I think that makes him more dangerous because he's obviously off somewhere talking to people. We just can't see it now. Yeah did they shake.
01:02:21.47 | faster_horses | Is yeah is it is in his lair in the alps with the ah.
01:02:27.95 | Mark | Yeah.
01:02:29.84 | Nick | Yeah, Explosive laz and sharks I got the best sharks.
01:02:32.15 | Mark | Ah, oh.
01:02:33.30 | faster_horses | Ah, Nick nick do you do a Boris johnson dear are nice, um, have you I yeah, ah.
01:02:36.71 | Nick | Um, yeah.
01:02:37.48 | Mark | Oh do just like loads of random Warora and power. Yeah or alternatively associate with Kellogg's conflicts.
01:02:42.53 | Nick | I do it I'm doing it now people on the audio podcast I was making a hand gesture that you may associate with Boris johnson.
01:02:57.17 | Mark | Yeah, yeah, or at least you make Mr Kellogg very I can agree. Well you know I think you? yeah I think.
01:02:57.81 | Nick | Ah, nice. Nice. Yeah I was making myself a bowl of conflicts. Yes I was all very happy depending on what side of the equation. It was on.
01:02:59.40 | faster_horses | Ah, are ah good. Yeah, ah.
01:03:13.87 | Mark | I I wouldn't trust him.
01:03:17.10 | faster_horses | Is that is that you me your milks so St Ah, ah, ah sorry, ah.
01:03:19.66 | Mark | No, no sorry mark. So yeah, yeah, ah couple your ears are what you don't want to hear I do reverse.
01:03:20.61 | Nick | Ah, right? Well, that's the end of the episode now right? No, we're done. We're done here. But so thanks, thanks for tuning in Pauls Pauls ruined everything.
01:03:37.10 | faster_horses | Ah, no, it's good. It's good. Good episode like it like it.
01:03:38.67 | Mark | The ming right? Yeah yeah.
01:03:42.32 | Nick | Yeah I was thinking paul this morning. Why don't we I'll write you a bit of a synopsis. Why don't you upload Yesterday's attempt as just a completely separate bonus episode. Yeah.
01:03:51.73 | faster_horses | Yes, oh yeah, yeah I was thinking of I was thinking of yeah yeah, and.
01:03:54.12 | Mark | Um.
01:03:58.54 | Nick | Save you save people like were I'm assuming it's you like editing it on the end of this or wherever.
01:04:02.16 | faster_horses | yeah yeah yeah yeah I was good to put it as as bo this episode on Patron I think.
01:04:03.94 | Mark | But yeah I was laughing about that I do think that's not salvageable to put in to an existing effort episode. But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a thing we did.
01:04:06.32 | Nick | Nice. Yeah, but as a thing we might as well just upload it as a bit of a bone or something. Yeah, do you want to? do you want to do a Christmas episode then yeah I think we should do yeah do you want to do? what.
01:04:14.76 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah, yeah, shall we she would she would do it in person. Let's a It's probably.
01:04:23.95 | Mark | Yeah, that would be good that would be really good.
01:04:30.19 | Nick | You want to come to mine or.
01:04:32.75 | Mark | That's probably easier. Yeah, got a bit more space than I have and not surrounded by children. Um I'm pretty free all round I'm not free on the thirtieth or the first.
01:04:34.30 | Nick | All right when when are we all free then.
01:04:34.73 | faster_horses | Easier. Yeah.
01:04:43.88 | faster_horses | Ah, yeah.
01:04:47.95 | Nick | Oh we want to get it out before chris oh you mean of this month all right? sorry.
01:04:48.61 | Mark | Um, the yeah yeah, so but I think start is 7 is pretty clear for me.
01:04:50.18 | faster_horses | Yeah, yeah.
01:04:57.20 | Nick | I Imagine it's probably going to be led by when polls free because he's got a family in that.
01:04:57.80 | faster_horses | Yeah.
01:05:01.28 | Mark | Um, ah, despicable.
01:05:02.87 | faster_horses | Well depends what we want to do really whether we want to do We could do an evening not problem there. Ah.
01:05:08.95 | Nick | Yeah, oh yeah, I'm up here do that you want to do like ah can you do a like a week a Friday evening or ah or just have to be in the week you want to do that.
01:05:16.49 | faster_horses | I could do a Friday evening could do yeah what about oh we come Friday oh no oh I can't this Friday it's my works Christmas do.
01:05:23.58 | Nick | Oh actually yeah, Drew's a away. Ah. All right? Well, that's fine. Well we can do it midweek if you wanted but I'll probably be a bit less frazzled if we do it the weekend.
01:05:34.96 | faster_horses | Um, and then is. Yeah, oh or if we do it at the on the 10th or eleventh. Yeah for Friday Saturday. Oh.
01:05:49.98 | Mark | Tenth or eleven said to have something on that rings spell.
01:05:55.83 | Nick | Well let's pencil in both of those days until Mark figure can remember what he's doing on either of them.
01:05:59.64 | Mark | I Don't to be honest I don't think I am doing anything.