🔥 Logs on your fire or Christmas Special – Live (part 1)

🔥 Logs on your fire - Join us for a retrospective of design and UX in 2021 and what are the current trends to look out for in 2022? Faster Horses Christmas Special 🎄 out now.

We got together, braved Omnicron and huddled around a virtual fire and shared one mic – find out what we think of design and user experience in 2021 and some of our insights and musings about life in product design.

🐎 80% comedy 20% UX 0% filler

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#Podcast #Design #Live #Christmas

PEACE!

Sound effects from https://www.zapsplat.com

Title music: James Medd
Produced by:
Paul Wilshaw
Nick Tomlinson
Mark Sutcliffe
James Medd
Anthony Jones
Chris Sutcliffe

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:06

Hello everyone and welcome to the Christmas special of Faster Horses with my esteemed guests and co-hosts, Nick Tomlinson from NT Illustrators. Not from NT Illustrators, well, the Twitter handle. And Paul Wilshaw, who's at Paul Wilshaw on Twitter as well. As you can see, we're here live in person delivering this uh together. Um I'm not catfishing everyone with this face, and I'm not actually a 70-year-old man from Wigan. Would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_02: 0:38

Hello, hello. Hi, I'm a deep fake of Nick Tommy.

SPEAKER_03: 0:43

He's actually a VTuber, and this is his rigged um What the fuck's a VTuber? Oh, I might have to explain that one. Go on. Yeah, yeah. So there is a very popular thing um on the internet, and I think it's inevitably a sex thing. Yeah, alright, okay. Go ahead. Um but basically it's where a lot of people who are streaming or recording on um for YouTube or whatever, they rig up a 3D model of usually of an anime girl that is overlaid over their um visage, their person, and it tracks their movement. Just like a filter, like a like a filter, like a statue. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly. But a full 3D rendered uh person, and yeah, they'll be able to affect a very surprising voice to accompany it usually.

SPEAKER_01: 1:40

Um to me, it's like a white fucking tweet.

SPEAKER_03: 1:54

There is a number of VR VTuber fails where it just cuts out. The rig fails and it's some yeah, it's some block with fucking square cream on it.

SPEAKER_04: 2:12

Like the subliminal messaging you get in kids TV protocol when they split splicing footage of dead foxes or whatever.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21

Have you watched the ones that he splices? I shouldn't be talking about my other job. Anyway, this is Paul. This is Paul, yeah. Yeah, so this is Paul. This is Paul's VTuber rig. Yeah, it's very realistic.

SPEAKER_00: 2:44

You should see my Tom pleat skirt underneath the table.

SPEAKER_02: 2:49

Very effective. Well, that's a that's a Christmas present just for me.

SPEAKER_03: 2:55

So in today's Christmas special, it is gonna be your usual expected 80% random bullshit and 20% UX. The 20% UX um part, we do have a few uh topics that we're gonna discuss, uh, such as um kind of a year in review, yeah. What the what UX has been for us personally in our careers, what we've learned and what we want to learn going forward and how we want to kind of apply that. And maybe even the wider things we want to see develop in the UX world. Uh, we've also got um a section I'm gonna affectionately term Nick's object d'art, where we'll uh figure out what a particular what I've got in my pocket. No, hopefully it's not the blind, a blind test thing where we all have to put our hands in Uncle Nick's surreptitious pocket. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 3:50

Why is it sticky?

SPEAKER_03: 3:53

That's the jam that I keep in there. And then uh we're gonna be my pocket jam. We're also gonna be doing a fig malong with uh Paul, and that's where uh Nick and I will hop into a file with Paul and we'll obviously make it so you can see it. Um and he'll like a V tuber. Yeah, am I saying that right? Uh I mean you're saying it right. It's utterly meaning though. Technically, the words are correct. Yeah. Uh we're gonna hop into a file and um and kind of play about that. And then of course we'll finish today with uh UX Tumboler, uh, which this time is I think probably preordained. Uh, we're not going to go through the tumble machine. The tumble machine.

SPEAKER_01: 4:43

Pre-ordained. Like Jesus came down and went, I have brought two subjects for UX Tomble. This is a little bit like this is the last up of this layout. Matt in the middle. Like I stuck next to him, ready to uh stab me in the fucking map him into the moments in warning.

SPEAKER_00: 5:09

And you know what I realised on the other. I should have brought booster cushion because I've been really small. I'm the smallest person in the world. How do you feel smaller than me? Not at all. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 5:22

I just it's it's it's in this insecurities. Yeah, it is. We'll put we'll make you taller in post. Okay, thanks. Like a V tuber! That that that'll do. This is good, and by that'll do, I mean please start. We stop saying VTuber. So, um, alright, let's start with our year in review. Um, since it was your idea, Nick, do you wanna do you wanna launch us into how your year's been, you UX wise, and how that's been.

SPEAKER_00: 5:52

Do you want to talk about some of the subjects you talked about on the Could do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 5:56

If we'd have planned this, we'd have we we could have done some of the updates to the episodes that we've done.

SPEAKER_03: 6:01

I mean, I can get out the episode list now.

SPEAKER_02: 6:04

Because we've like correct we've we've found out new information about some of the things we've said on the fly since, haven't we?

SPEAKER_03: 6:12

Yeah. Yeah, there are a few things. Uh one of our first episodes was actually on inputs, I think. Oh no. Did we do one on inputs? I think we did one on loading screens, and that's the one I was like. Oh yeah, that was one of our first ones. Yeah. Um I think it might have even been. I mean, I've not even documented how long we've been doing Faster Horses for as a three. In oh as a three.

SPEAKER_00: 6:38

Probably uh start in May.

SPEAKER_03: 6:41

I can I can find out the let's see, the dribble the dribble effects. This is fun listening. The dribble effects was the first ever podcast we did together. As a threesome, as a as a as a menage to that's French for uh threesome. Right. Um and so and that was back in April. That was back in April, and that was about of course uh what we believed Dribbble was doing to the community as a set as a UX community. Um in that podcast, I don't know if you remember, we basically shat on dribble for a good hour and a half.

SPEAKER_00: 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 7:24

Um has your have your has your opinions evolved from that point? Have you had any other experiences with dribble effects or similar have I had any other experiences with dribble?

SPEAKER_00: 7:39

I mean that's in Nick's uh segment later where he delves into his pocket.

SPEAKER_01: 7:44

Yeah, yeah, nice sticky pocket.

SPEAKER_02: 7:47

Uh a little bit, yeah. I've I've um met some people who have a higher opinion of it than I do. That's made me kind of take a second look. But I still don't think it's a great place to go for like UX behaviours. It's good it's still a good place to go for style kind of inspiration and stuff, but I stick to my guns on the whole. It's not useful for UX thing, really.

SPEAKER_00: 8:16

Yeah, you know what? I'd I'd say since doing that episode, um stock photography, stock imagery full stop. Ever since doing that episode, I've noticed a lot more stock stuff. People using the same stock images, the same stock images, or kind of same same style.

SPEAKER_02: 8:35

The um pre-rendered like iPhones and computers, everyone's using the same thing, the plugin for that as well.

SPEAKER_00: 8:41

Oh yeah, always kind of like the the isometric views or things like that, and then what I've noticed as well, like I think we talked about design languages, didn't we, a bit as well, and kind of like how how it's a common language, and you know, you if you speak English, you speak English 90% of the time, uh unless you're kind of like multilingual and then you speak you know more languages, but then you don't switch mid-conversation from English to Spanish when you're talking to somebody who can understand English, or vice versa, if you're talking to someone in Spanish. But yet people don't mind doing that in design with stock images, and then one minute they'll be like trying to get hooked people in in social media with kind of like a stock image, and then they land on the website that's got fuck all to do with that image, or anywhere from that, uh and uh and then it's kind of like this weird disjointed design language and kind of like the dense when you're speaking, you know, and even then going from different pages to different pages, there's like you know, slightly different tints of the colours, there's different stroke weights, there's different kind of like style of people, and you think kind of like looks confused and looks messed up, and then I I think as well with dribble, what I find with dribble, a lot of people when they get on dribble, they see the next greatest thing or kind of liked thing on there, and then they switch the styles like that, that then kind of like, oh wait a minute, you did this for six months on LDs. And then all the yeah, and then it's switched over here, and then how do you then kind of like it it's pretty much impossible nowadays to switch every single image or every single graphic over on a website or an app or whatever you're making? You know, and it's two-week sprints, isn't it? Generally, you've got kind of like and then you kind of roll something out and roll something out if you're rolling something out on a bi-weekly basis, which is cool, but then if your design changes every two weeks, how can your customers and your users kind of keep up with that?

SPEAKER_03: 10:58

If you are gonna iterate your design, you have to do just that. You can't just big bang and change immediately what your style is to the biggest thing because it just is so disjointed, it's indicative of uh well that you you know you've not got any kind of cohesion. Um but incidentally, I've noticed something happening in the UX world which is even more egregious than the dribble effect. Oh, and it's been happening on LinkedIn. Oh and you are getting the reaction, yeah. And it is and it is the old polls that have been popping up. The the image image A or image B, which one's the better solution? Yeah, and um the best response I've actually seen was from you. Um not the one where you just told them to fuck off. The one where you said best at what? Yeah. And and and this goes back to what we're saying in that first podcast we did when we were talking about when you're removing it from its context entirely, when you have no idea what part of a journey it is, what kind of accessibility requirements you're you're catering towards, your wider demographics, the platform, all of this is just stripped away and you're left with two buttons horizontally stacked and two buttons vertically stacked. Now, incidentally, the people who make these posts have already decided that both of these things are fine. Yeah, otherwise they wouldn't be putting it on because you can't be controversial, especially not on LinkedIn. Your fucking career goes down the fucking pan if you do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:42

I I think people are flirting with the career going down the pan anyway by posting these things. Because if you're posting something like that, you don't know what you're talking about. Your lust for clout on LinkedIn has overtaken your lust for being a good UX designer if you're posting shit like that. Because that's all it's for, it's just to get reactions to appease the algorithm, to appease the algorithm. So I've forgot what I was saying, blah blah blah and we're back. Yeah, so you just post you're just posting these things. Oh my god. So you're just posting these things to so people either like or clap or whatever the engagement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the algorithm recognises you and then boosts the rest of your post, your your next post that's two arbitrary images.

SPEAKER_00: 13:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 13:39

Um, I put one together a bit ago that was like, I can't remember what it was, it was like a donut emoji and then a picture of Angela Lansbury in a VR headset or something, and I was like, which is better? And it's just exactly the same question, it's just completely arbitrary. It's nothing to do with it. But if you're a you if you're a real UX designer and you're posting stuff like that, you might as well put your hands up and say, I've no idea what I'm doing. Yeah, all you try to do with that is get noticed or get a like.

SPEAKER_03: 14:06

The I think the worst thing about it though, similar to the the dribble effect, is that it works. You find yourself clicking on one or thinking about it, even if you're angry about it. Yeah. Um, or you know, I I don't because um I'm such a fucking contrarian that uh my body doesn't let me click on any of the options.

SPEAKER_02: 14:26

But this is the thing. So people who post those things get a load of clicks, and in their head, that's the same as being a good UX designer.

SPEAKER_03: 14:34

Well, it's that validation, immediate gratification, immediate validation. It goes hand in hand with a lot of the polls. I would like to see the metric for how many links in polls say the following Is remote working good? Yes or no?

SPEAKER_02: 14:50

Or is it a nuanced subject? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:54

Is it in response to an ongoing global global crisis which is affecting everyone differently and reducing it down to yes or no to your little echo chamber? Probably doesn't reflect the wider uh human experience around it.

SPEAKER_00: 15:08

Yeah, I sometimes wonder those posts. I sometimes wonder kind of what's the what's the motive behind that?

SPEAKER_02: 15:15

It's content, it's just content.

SPEAKER_00: 15:17

Well, is it though? Because is it kind of like people asking kind of like remote working because they want to be remote and then they want to go back to whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02: 15:26

I've seen arguments for going into the office, yeah, yeah, yeah. And obviously by people who think they should be in the office, probably playing like foreign office that's not getting used, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00: 15:37

Yeah, and it's yeah, and it's what it's what that motive is behind all those things, and I it's just there's no context behind any of those things, is there? Kind of like which which is better and which is not better. I did do one. Um I kind of like and I kind of like said, Does which does this look like something? Uh and it was an icon. And uh one of my friends on Twitter said, Um, all I can see, mate, is boobs. Uh yeah, yeah. And I thought, maybe that's not the right icon, but but maybe it was exactly the right icon.

SPEAKER_03: 16:16

Yeah, maybe that freelance, that freelance work that's been piling up. Yeah, I think you kind of hit the nail on the head um throughout this, and that's what you get with the dribble effects, with these random comparisons plucked out of nowhere on LinkedIn, it's reductive. And I think it's dangerous for the industry to be so reductive, because whilst it might start a conversation, the conversation can't go anywhere. And when we're at an it we're in an industry where people already don't understand what it is we're trying to achieve, even though we're just making shit easier to use, more usable. A lot of uh businesses, especially don't see how that fits into their current um products uh cycle. So if you you're boasting, you're reducing it down to should the button go on the left, the button go on the right. This kind of pixel nudging should go on the right.

SPEAKER_02: 17:12

What about your localization option? Um a different place. If it's a back button, um should it still go on the right? It should be on the left of the button that's on the right.

SPEAKER_03: 17:27

Are we are we talking are we talking within a model? And is that model a wizard? Well, quite.

SPEAKER_02: 17:36

This is the point. I think this is this is really well illustrated. Yeah, this is so but no one no one on LinkedIn has a conversation. Not at all precisely. Like some guy who's who's I'm not gonna I'm not gonna stereotype someone will comment on and go, it's the right one, and if if you say otherwise, you're wrong, and I hope your family dies. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 18:01

You said it went on the left, and that was so wrong. My daughter saw it, and she's dead!

SPEAKER_00: 18:11

Okay. You know what? I think this this nicely fits into um, because you mentioned it there, this nicely fits into another subject on the podcast we talked about, and that's job titles. Uh, and I think, and you kind of mentioned it there that companies don't know what UX is. They kind of say the user experience. What does uh user experience mean? You know, I kind of a lot of people still think that's the shade of the button, it's where the button sits on the page, or then it's user flows, or then it's kind of like you know, oh UX people only do wireframes, they only talk to customers, and kind of like there's there's a range of jobs in a UX person's toolkit, and then nobody really understands what that toolkit or what that job is.

SPEAKER_03: 19:08

Yeah, yeah, and that's I think that's the nature of of where we are in UX. But on the one hand, you've got that miasma where people haven't got a clue, and then on the other hand, you've got um Johnny Greenbollocks on LinkedIn who has already decided it's where your icon goes without context. And you can't have that conversation at all, it just can't go any further. If you've got a design critique within your organization or within your local community of practice, for example, um, where you have conversations like that, you can actually come up with a consensus that could become a thought lead uh a leading thought within UX. Yeah, that's not going to happen on LinkedIn though, because that's not the nature of the forum. So um it it is that non starter that is just so indicative of. Superficial engagement and parade.

SPEAKER_02: 20:04

I think are we still talking about job titles? Yeah, yeah, that's true. So I I still think, and um even probably more so than when we talked about it originally, that job titles are essentially created and cultivated and maintained by recruiters so that they can sell things back to people to people or businesses. Because uh if you go online now and you look for graphic design jobs, they just basically don't exist anymore. They've all just been re- uh titled as UX designers, and as a result of that, the the job of UX designer has come to just mean anything like any any kind of web design, basically.

SPEAKER_03: 20:44

Yeah, so well it tends to include illustration now as well. Yeah, that's something we mentioned in our uh corporate Memphis episode about how um you get this homogenous uh uh mis uh this homogeneous title as a result of this misunderstanding. And so when you have uh a style like corporate Memphis, which has uh began with careful cultivation with millions of dollars of investment, um and then uh you've got uh a CEO somewhere who sees it and goes, bingo, that's trending, I want that. And he goes over and goes, Hey Johnny, do this bit cheaper. Do this cheaper now. You've got 20 minutes, I'll see you then.

SPEAKER_02: 21:26

But that as with everything, the first people to employ that on a massive scale did it really, really well. Yeah, yeah. Um I forgot the actual name of the Allegra. Allegra, yeah, that's it, yeah. Was lovely, and like the document they put together for it was yeah, uh really good and really concise, and you know, I covered a lot of ground, and the style was really nice, very involved. Like I seem to remember it had like texture and shading on it and stuff, and that's been uh recycled and copied and uh and like adapted upon to the point where you've got like humans now that's just a plug-in for Figma, and I'm seeing those all over the place. I'm seeing those on TV adverts. Oh yes, like just everywhere they're absolutely awful, yeah, terrible.

SPEAKER_00: 22:14

Um although they are useful in a certain context.

SPEAKER_02: 22:19

Well, yeah, I mean everything's useful for something, yeah. Like Boris Johnson's useful for something, presumably allegedly, yeah. Even if it's walking a draft.

SPEAKER_03: 22:32

Oh well, yeah. Harvest I'm gonna go for harvesting organs. I just do you reckon Boris Johnson is on the donor list?

SPEAKER_00: 22:41

No, no, it isn't everybody automatically on the donor list country.

SPEAKER_02: 22:45

No, even all taking himself off. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he'll be scrapping the NHS soon anyway, so it would be a moot point, won't it?

SPEAKER_03: 22:52

Well, okay, let's uh let's talk about the ex design of that one another time. So uh so move on slightly. There is something I wanted to ask uh regarding. So we've got oh I don't even know, we've got two seasons worth out this year um of sporadic podcasts. It's especially fallen apart in the past past few weeks um in terms of our consistency for releasing. But um that's all you get. Speak for yourself. We got lives to lead. Um you know, and when we're when everyone's joining Patreon and paying us to do this, we can do it regularly. Yeah, yeah. Um so yeah, it's your fault. It's your fault. Um join. But the the the question I wanted to ask was which was your favourite episode of the past? Oh yeah. Oh which one is it that sticks in your mind the most?

SPEAKER_00: 23:48

You know what? I think mine's a there's a couple, I'm torn between. There's there's a really good one. Is um UX art is art is UX art or is it science? Oh yeah, that was quite early on. That's a really good one. And I also liked uh the goldfish one.

SPEAKER_02: 24:10

Oh the bag of fish eyeballs.

SPEAKER_00: 24:12

The uh the one where no, the um the ballet up uh where you were talking about the the uh everybody's a designer, and um you're talking kind of like I don't want orange on my website.

SPEAKER_02: 24:24

Oh, because my uh goldfish on the I remember that story. That is yeah, that's one of my favourite me moments. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:33

I mean, because I could hear everyone just going, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02: 24:38

And then I said the last bit, and fucking James just pissed himself. And then everyone else started laughing as well.

SPEAKER_00: 24:46

That was a really good one. That was a really good one. Yeah, yeah. And obviously, uh for new exambola, glasses class arcade.

SPEAKER_03: 24:55

Oh god, the favourite Samboler.

SPEAKER_02: 24:57

Yeah, I mean, any anything with uh Mark Steeler in it is absolutely amazing. They can do the the fucking gravy with the sushi. Oh yeah, chop sips, yeah, chop sips. The um I'm so lucky that I didn't have my microphone on for that because I would have ruined the entire episode.

SPEAKER_03: 25:15

I mean because you didn't have your microphone on, all it is is me sniggering halfway through because I can't read the straight face because you two are both collapsing.

SPEAKER_00: 25:23

Oh tears from laughter on that.

SPEAKER_03: 25:27

So, which was your favourite episode in the pat over the past year?

SPEAKER_02: 25:31

Well, so you asked your question was which one sticks in your mind? Well, yeah, and I'm sat here flicking through on Spotify all the episodes, so apparently none.

SPEAKER_03: 25:40

Yeah, yeah, that's good, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 25:42

Um I mean, in terms of title, how the sausage gets made makes me laugh every time I read it. Yeah, yeah. But I can't remember what it was about.

SPEAKER_03: 25:50

Oh, design what our design assist, that was yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 25:53

Yeah. Um I mean, yeah, it it it they've all played into one, obviously. But anything where Mark Steele turns up is is comedy goals.

SPEAKER_00: 26:03

I was in I was in a meeting the other day and uh I was speaking to our um CMO, Chief Modeston Officer, and uh I brought up the uh sausage factory in uh Canal talking about design systems and what and I just every time I talk about design systems now, I've got to fit in the sausage factory factory.

SPEAKER_03: 26:24

When I whenever I think about that, I still think of what's his face from Master Chef going pointlessly around the sausage factory break wallet down here, I don't need a big bucket of and it's just like why why the fuck did you bother? Yeah, good get him out of that fucking house, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 26:53

Greg Glenn's got a question which side should the button be on?

SPEAKER_01: 26:57

Yeah, that's like that's like he's in the room. That's my Greg Wallace impression, everyone.

SPEAKER_03: 27:08

I think it's very accurate. I think um the the one podcast uh that stuck in my mind, and incidentally I actually listened to it today, uh listened back over to it, was actually the corporate Memphis one. Um and I think the reason it stuck in my mind is because we had the opportunity within that to address a number of actual wider issues that come with not having a stance as an organisation when it comes to inclusivity. And I thought that was quite an important conversation to to have when currently it seems not having a stance is is fine. Yeah, um, so I thought that was my favourite one. That being said, the other one that I enjoy thinking back on is wobble people. Oh, wobble people, because that was that was a that was what typifies faster horses for me, is when we take an idea, no matter how inappropriate it is. You're right, getting molested by some by the scenery. Uh we take an idea no matter how small or seemingly abstract it is, and somehow we a little bit of shit gets in and a pearl grolls up around it. That's what happens. Oh, I love that metaphor. Um, and that's that's one of the reasons I love this podcast is because we're able to, you know, we've done it with baking before, that was in Art vs. Science. Oh, yeah. And look when we just pick up a metaphor and run with it. Yeah, yeah. And of course, uh honor and mention to James Media because he's fantastic with his analysis. James Med. One of the more recent ones.

SPEAKER_02: 28:53

James Metaphor. Hey you can have that for free. If that's not your Twitter username, after listening to this episode, I'm gonna be mortally insulted.

SPEAKER_03: 29:05

Yeah, um, the some of the some of the others we've thought up in the past was um strapping skateboards together instead of making a car.

SPEAKER_01: 29:14

I remember just one sound clip from that, which is we've strapped loads of skateboards together with a skateboard for a steering video. And I still feel that we should be illustrating these comments.

SPEAKER_02: 29:29

Well, yeah, so that's that's that's a good uh that's a good point you raise there, because Paul, you've been doing amazing work with like just pulling random clips out and doing those little illustrations for social media. Yeah, they're fucking brilliant. I love those.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

Yeah, yeah, it's the material there is already there. It's just so easy. Is it like does it randomly pick clips and just give them to you, or do you just when I'm editing the podcast, I go through and kind of like and just the bits that make me smile the most? I just say I'm just taking that line and I'm gonna run with it. I think uh the one of the last ones I did was like fire spray.

SPEAKER_03: 30:09

Oh god, I was listening back to that and I just thought, we've degenerated. That was absolutely fucking shit show. Yeah, literally, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 30:18

We're off as game. Did you upload this special episode that was just like smut for 15 minutes?

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

Yeah, yeah, that's on uh Patreon forward slash faster horses.

SPEAKER_02: 30:29

Of course, you can uh listen to that episode. I think it's Faster Horses UX. We've got a good knowers on.

SPEAKER_03: 30:36

This is going on Patreon, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 30:37

So this is going on Spotify, the video is going on Patreon forward slash Fasterhorses UX. Uh and then we'll probably do an extended version on Patreon as well. So if you want more of this absolute gold, absolutely sign up to Patreon for as little as one pound a month.

SPEAKER_03: 30:55

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 30:56

Yeah, it's less than a coffee.

SPEAKER_03: 31:00

Yeah, yeah, quite a margin. Yeah, yeah. But alright then. Let's ask a serious question. What is your favourite UX Tombola product?

SPEAKER_02: 31:12

Oh, I I can't I can't say chop sips because I came up with a name, didn't I?

SPEAKER_03: 31:16

I'm gonna have to and and and of course, this is told from the honorary Mark Steeler who's here with us today in the sanctuary of my mind.

SPEAKER_02: 31:27

What so can you remember anyone?

SPEAKER_04: 31:30

Uh yes, I sold you uh and our esteemed viewers many beautiful delights. It started with, of course, the classic cloth, emporium, and arcade. We have these aren't in any order, because I could have made a list, I have not. We have, of course, the chopsits, we have fired our people. We fired our people! Fired up! Oh, and and of course, uh a very handsome young man who sang us the slogan. Do you remember? Fired all people. We have we have we have, of course, EMPs. Which were electromagnetic powers. We have uh educated, which was your way of monitoring not just your kids' bad day, but all of them. Not just one bad day. All of them forever. Um god, and I there was many, many more, but uh I've since forgotten. I mean, those are some of the hits, aren't they?

SPEAKER_02: 32:36

They are they are some of the greatest. How do you pick it's like Sophie's choice? It is, isn't it? How do you choose one to that? Should I put a bullet in the back of chopsticks? Wait, chopstips.

SPEAKER_03: 32:51

Chopstips. Yes, I remember one of Charles' less successful options uh was um instead of blue roll just throwing sand over your shit. Like a cat. Like a cat does, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:03

Um what's wrong with just throwing sand over your shit like a cat?

SPEAKER_03: 33:09

Um one of our first ever solutions, and this was one that Mark Steeler didn't get his grubby mitts on, was uh it might have been the first direct before your mental break before I descended into whatever state I'm in now, um was of course Nick watering his plants by walking up the stairs into his chair naked with his rubber plants and standing under the shower.

SPEAKER_02: 33:40

Yep, that's a thing that happened. That was one of our first Well, it didn't happen. I'd like to say that never happened. Oh that's disappointing. We talked about it.

SPEAKER_03: 33:49

We talked about the UX of gardening, that was quite a compelling one. I think that included your many, many manor gardens and your llama. I don't know if you remember. The llama just a llama. I re I'm now realising just how good my ridiculous memory is for these things, how useful it is.

SPEAKER_02: 34:09

I honestly couldn't remember any of those apart from chops it, and you'd already said that.

SPEAKER_03: 34:14

I'd already said that, yeah. Yeah. Um I can't really think of any others though. Uh, but Mark Steeler obviously has had a uh terrible year. He's declared himself bankrupt 14 times, which incidentally is probably more than the episodes we released with his MO. That's Mark Steeler's MO though, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's not in it for he's certainly not in it for the UX, that's it. Yeah, yes. Um, so yeah, I think um what would you like to see from the next year of podcasts?

SPEAKER_02: 34:50

Consistency, very well said, yeah, a little bit of production value, some more in-person ones would be good.

SPEAKER_03: 35:00

Yeah, I think I like that we did a Halloween special.

SPEAKER_02: 35:03

Yeah. Oh, I really enjoyed um listening back UX Files.

SPEAKER_00: 35:10

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02: 35:10

I really liked I think when I raised the idea of reading an article out and then talking about it, it sounded quite boring. But I really liked that. It kind of counterbalances the bullshit episodes to have something a little bit more like studious, yeah, yeah, almost academic and just reading out a nice article about something that I read like that.

SPEAKER_03: 35:35

Granted, you brought up a brilliant one that shows hilarious mistranslations under the guise of localization issues.

SPEAKER_02: 35:43

Yeah, yeah, but the yeah, I thought that was good. I think we might, I think we should try and do some more of those. You did Paul did that absolutely amazing title sequence for him as well, and we somehow managed to fall upon a fucking theme tube for it, and we always do, which is just me and Mark having a mental break now.

SPEAKER_03: 36:03

Okay, we're a joint psychosis episode. I think um that's part again, going back to my favourite things about this podcast, it is there are occasional times where we've really have struck the balance, stricken the balance between that nonsense uh where we just talk about arbitrary bollocks, and it ends up being quite funny. At least this is a this is a feedback I've got from those who've listened, yeah. Um to that actual really informative stuff that um that is in there, yeah, that isn't the heart of it.

SPEAKER_00: 36:36

You just have to listen about an hour and ten minutes in.

SPEAKER_02: 36:40

If you if you want a podcast or a video about UX, like there's TED Talks, there's this like go on Spotify, type UX, uh listen to ours first, and then all the ones below it are just like fucking fill your boots with them. They're there. Like we need not it's not that we want to be different, we are different. We're having this podcast came about because we were having conversations, and one of us said we should record these, even if it's just for us.

SPEAKER_03: 37:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I found that this podcast has helped me as a professional, yeah. Um, because well, primarily because I can nick both your ideas, and I is it gives me that forum to ask those questions. If I if I've got a if I've got a difficulty at work, uh, for example, I can actually thinly veil it in the in the frame of whatever our topic is, and then throw it to you guys, and you can hand uh hand it back to me. But there are there are things we've discussed that have clarified, especially processes and approaches and methodologies in my mind.

SPEAKER_02: 37:47

Well, there's been episodes where I've asked a question, genuinely asking a question, and we've like worked through it and I've like changed my opinion or found out some new information by talking to Paul about stuff, and that's happened in like I'm also here, friends. No, I mean not that you don't offer not that you don't offer good stuff, but I remember like specifically, I was just like please hand me the shovel. I'm gonna need a fucking JC mate to get out of this all. Um no, so I'm just rec I've just remembered like a specific occasion when I was talking to Paul and he made me like we had like a very polite argument, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't an argument, we would just had like differing opinions. Yeah, yeah. And then I made went after the episode and made a small voodoo doll of him and I burnt its hair off. I did wonder. I did wonder. Yeah, yeah, it was kind of like yeah. Oh um, yeah, and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fucking hell.

SPEAKER_04: 38:52

Something really fucking inappropriate about you and your voodoo dolls.

SPEAKER_01: 38:57

Do you remember um Yeah, if your head suddenly becomes slimy? Or slightly smaller.

SPEAKER_02: 39:04

Oh shrinking. Do you watch do you remember um do you ever watch that episode of Sesame Street where those aliens turned up and they just go, Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, and then other ones pop up and the old side went, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03: 39:20

I think I haven't seen that episode, but in the Jungian collective unconsciousness, that is my generation, I am aware of it.

SPEAKER_02: 39:29

So, what's gonna happen now is I'm gonna go on YouTube looking for that footage, and it's not gonna exist, and it's gonna it's gonna be like some Berstein Bears like situation where I've just dreamt it like the fucking Thundercats videotape that I keep talking about. Have I told you about that?

SPEAKER_01: 39:47

No, Thomas, tell us when I was when I was little, right?

SPEAKER_02: 39:51

I had and if you I remember this if someone broke into this house and put a gun next to my head and asked me if this was true or not, I would say that it is.

SPEAKER_00: 40:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:00

Right. When I was a kid, I had a Thundercats video cassette, VHS.

SPEAKER_00: 40:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 40:07

And when I got to the end of one of the episodes, sometimes there was an extra episode on the end, and sometimes there wasn't. And I'd used to sit there after the last episode and go, please be one of the times that the extra episode plays. And sometimes it wouldn't, and I'd be really disappointed. Sometimes it would. That's creepy, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 40:26

It is, yeah. No, it's not creepy.

SPEAKER_03: 40:28

It explains a lot.

SPEAKER_00: 40:30

It's not creepy.

SPEAKER_03: 40:31

About your Thundercats. Well, about your personality in general. Yeah. I think it's yeah, it's the equivalent of hanging on for an extra episode that doesn't even exist. That's my yeah, my life then.

SPEAKER_00: 40:43

Is it because though the your video had like it was like five episodes on one tape?

SPEAKER_02: 40:48

Well, it would have been like three, probably.

SPEAKER_00: 40:50

Yeah, so we did you it always happened after the first and second one. Please don't be on that.

SPEAKER_01: 40:59

Please don't be on that. Please don't be on that.

SPEAKER_03: 41:08

That's probably what it was. You didn't realise that there were different, there was it all on the same tape.

SPEAKER_02: 41:14

No, no, well, I mean, I was I'm saying it definitely happened. There's no physical way of physical proof, no. But yeah, anyway, uh we're recording a podcast now, so let's let's carry on with the UX stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 41:27

This is this is the uh being Nick Tomlinson.

SPEAKER_02: 41:30

Yeah. Hi, welcome to a new Faster Horses podcast, being Nick Tomlinson. Um that'd be such a fascinating podcast. It would at least one episode. It'd just be the sounds of me pottering around the kitchen coughing. Oh my god, slurping coffee, and then going for a poop.

SPEAKER_00: 41:52

Which is your life. This this explains we haven't done it. This explains why we haven't got more Patreon subscribers.

SPEAKER_03: 42:00

You know what? That's the difference.

SPEAKER_02: 42:01

That's how he's only fans are before the new year. I'm gonna record audio format only, an episode of being Nick Tomlinson, and I'm gonna upload it to Patreon, and you can access that for the one pound a month fee and you can see what it's like to be John Ma uh Nick Tomlinson.

SPEAKER_00: 42:19

Can we have a theme tune for it as well? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:23

You mean now? I think what I think that's two meta, one of you two needs to see it.

SPEAKER_03: 42:29

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Um, I think a theme tune. Yeah. I think what we need to have is some dissonant music playing. Whilst I got I'm Nick Tomlinson.

SPEAKER_02: 42:42

Tomlinson. I'm sorry. Tomlinson. Tomlinson?

SPEAKER_01: 42:56

Being Nick Tomlinson, what has happened? We haven't happened.

SPEAKER_02: 43:07

Well, that's a natural place to go. Right, so should we do my special?

SPEAKER_00: 43:15

Just before we do that, what I was gonna say, so we've done a review of the year. Do we kind of kind of should we do predictions of 2022 with a tent of UX?

SPEAKER_01: 43:26

The seas will boil from the sky.

SPEAKER_04: 43:30

I think that'll be in 2020.

SPEAKER_00: 43:38

Giant plague will haunt us all. Giant plague.

SPEAKER_01: 43:42

Like brilliant of pla of giants. A perfectly vestiferous plague of giants!

SPEAKER_03: 43:51

Oh yes. Yeah, yeah. Um, so what's gonna happen in 2022? I reckon we'll see a response, a COVID response, um, in the UX world. I think there's gonna be UX-driven design now that is being pioneered in response to the situations that COVID has forced us into. I think we've already seen a lot of this, but I'm hoping, well, this is where I get optimistic, that it's actually gonna proliferate into those darker corners, such as local government, where these things are so much slower um that that it's basically uh it's impossible to reach. We've seen we've seen stuff like uh with delivery and uh delivery apps adopting grocery delivery and transforming that. Uh we've seen different uh modes of communication around um social distancing, uh, and there are various memes that exist around how people have established what the levels they're comfortable with. Uh, we've got a new perspective on accessibility because we've all been forced to be at home. So we've got that hopefully that will remain with us as again, hopefully things start to improve. And I think we're gonna see a lot of new ideas, innovation in product design and stuff like that come from uh COVID-19 and um its various bizarrely named variants.

SPEAKER_02: 45:19

Um would you like to hazard uh guess at one of the variant names?

SPEAKER_03: 45:28

Well, one of the upcoming ones, yeah, yeah. It'd probably be called fucking faster horses at this.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

Started in Sulford.

SPEAKER_02: 45:40

I'm gonna I'm gonna go with Ganymede being one. Ganymede, yeah. Do you know Wait, is that a Doctor Who reference?

SPEAKER_03: 45:47

No, Ganymede is quite he he was Zeus's lover. Was he? Yeah, he was well, Zeus's Zeus's lover in the modern idiom. In the ancient, it was just straight up his catamite. Yeah, the Ganymede had no choice in it, but apparently they had quite a lovely relationship together. Oh. As as far as Greek relationships between humans and gods go. Hera was not impressed. Well, you know, did she ever no incidentally, she's never never happy that one. Um so I would say that well, we've got Omnicron, which is one of the big transformers, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 46:24

Yeah, the planet one.

SPEAKER_03: 46:26

Yeah. I think we're gonna go into more and more pop we're probably gonna call one Garfield. Yeah, make it a bit irreverent. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 46:34

What about Bebop just for you, Nick? Don't taint my childhood.

SPEAKER_04: 46:40

You've ruined my childhood, calling the next COVID variant Bebop.

SPEAKER_02: 46:46

I'm writing drafting the letter to my MP as we speak. Yeah, very strong letters to the predictions for UX. I think probably towards the end of the year. I mean, I reckon it's probably gonna be more 2023 to be honest, but I'm gonna stick within the confines of the question. So right towards the end of the year, we're gonna start seeing the first peak uh design systems being packaged up and sold by agencies, creative agencies, as a product.

SPEAKER_03: 47:17

Yeah, something that out of the box, yeah. It requires, I mean, you could use automation to uh in theory swap these things out, you know, and to recognize and a bit of machine learning to help refactor your code so that it's it's it's basically a plug-and-play deal. Um, or even these services going so far as replicating your product in their design system, yeah, and then selling that back to you, you know. That could take it could take a few forms, I think.

SPEAKER_02: 47:49

A further prediction would be one of those agencies will be called Faster Horses.

SPEAKER_00: 47:54

I like it. What are my predictions for UX? Uh I think I think the Meta Meta Face Facebook changed the parent company name to Meta. No, that was this year. To Meta. Well, I know, but that's cheating. I know, but yeah, yeah. But I think next year we're gonna see more meta-type experiences on the web. So I think we're gonna see kind of like a bit more kind of like VR, virtual reality, kind of that kind of experience.

SPEAKER_02: 48:30

Do you think 2022 is finally the year that VR takes off?

SPEAKER_00: 48:37

I think AR over VR. I think uh VR is cool, but I think AR is where it's at. And I was I was kinda I think Apple are on the verge of kind of like I think not maybe not 2022, but maybe 23, 24, they're gonna release AR glasses that project your iPhone uh you know through your eyes and burn your retina around. Uh and this kind of and they've already kind of filed loads and loads of patents around this. Uh and you'll be able to kind of like see weather and things kind of like in front of your face.

SPEAKER_02: 49:12

We can see the weather already. Well, I know that's what you can look at. Typically in front of your face.

SPEAKER_00: 49:18

That means like you have to open the bloody curtains or things like that.

SPEAKER_03: 49:22

Which is just, yeah, it's way too much for me. With all with augmented reality, I think it's going to tie in a bit more closely with the internet of things.

unknown: 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 49:31

And I think we'll see it um existing in your uh because I think what we'll find out is in reality that to wear a pair of glasses with a constant heads-up display is probably more of an inconvenience than we realise, certainly at the early stages. So I wonder if we'll find it more closely integrated with um our homes, and you know, the you know, the scalp screens or or projections of things, TVs will have cameras in them or something like that. Yeah, or they'll be able to shoot things onto your blank wall. And we might even see stuff like art start to be created on that basis.

SPEAKER_00: 50:06

I'm sure it already another one, kind of NFTs, they've kind of like been all over the place, haven't they? And I think you know, kind of like, are we gonna go into this kind of virtual art style gallery something? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 50:25

Speaking of art, I think we're gonna start seeing a reaction to um thingy.

SPEAKER_03: 50:34

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02: 50:34

Could you be a bit more specific? I can corporate Memphis. Oh, okay. Like I say, I think that's finally gonna start.

SPEAKER_03: 50:44

I think that's exactly what's gonna happen. I personally think that we'll find a passion emerging, and this will be a user-driven passion, a customer-driven passion for bespoke illustration again.

SPEAKER_02: 50:54

Yeah, I think people will start hiring illustr illustrators onto their teams, and whatever that person's style is, that will become the illustration style for the brand.

SPEAKER_00: 51:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_02: 51:06

And I think we'll probably I think I probably said this in the corporate Memphis episode, it'll become less figurative and a little bit more abstract, maybe sort of landscape-based, nature-based. I think that's probably the way it's gonna go.

SPEAKER_03: 51:20

I I think uh I agree with that. I also think there's gonna be more of an onus on the storytelling within an illustration.

SPEAKER_02: 51:28

Yeah, I think I think they're gonna remove so a lot of the time now when you see some kind of interaction or something like that, it's a hand interacting with an object. I think even to the point where hands are gonna be removed from illustrations and you're just gonna see the object or the button or something like that. Yeah, I think people are gonna be pulled out of illustrations and it's just gonna focus on the interaction of the object.

SPEAKER_00: 51:53

I think digital storytelling, I think we're gonna do an episode early next year called scrolly telling. So, this is where you tell a story by scrolling your mouse wheel through a website or Paul.

SPEAKER_02: 52:08

Users don't scroll.

SPEAKER_00: 52:10

They fucking do.

SPEAKER_03: 52:13

I think we might have mentioned this in UX Misconception podcast along with the three-click myth and uh uh all those ridiculous notions. The fur the only thing people do is scroll.

SPEAKER_02: 52:26

I mean, I'm I'm I've not checked recently, but I'd put a lot of money on the top three apps on the Apple App Store being infinite scroll apps, Instagram, uh, TikTok, and like LinkedIn or Twitter or something. Anything like that.

SPEAKER_00: 52:43

Yeah, but I think I think where where the kind of the fold kind of where we get kind of metrics kind of from that, you kind of like see like a hotjar and things like that. When people land on a page, obviously the top part of the page will have the highest percentage of views on it. And I think people take that kind of like stat and go like, oh nobbe scrolls, or kind of like they've only come there. But probably what's happened, one of two things, they've got to that page, maybe been distracted, or looked around for the navigation and something else, or they've kind of come to that and kind of thought, ah, I'm sure what I want. So let's move on.

SPEAKER_02: 53:23

Does hot jar account for the fact that when you land on a page, you land on the top of it?

SPEAKER_00: 53:28

Well, yeah, exactly. And that you know, and kind of like when we force people to land on the top, what's gonna get the most the most hits and things like that? It's obviously gonna be the soft, and then some people take that stat and then think, you know, I'm gonna run with that stat and then design everything to the smallest.

SPEAKER_02: 53:47

Yeah, so this is one of the things that we've been dealing with quite a lot at work, which is there's some really, really good data people in the business who are presenting really, really good data, yeah. But and you know, they're doing like good things with it, but what we've noticed is we could take that really good work and make it even better by just asking why.

SPEAKER_00: 54:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:08

I think that'd be a uh a full episode we could do. Literally just an episode called why.

SPEAKER_00: 54:13

Yeah, that would be a good one.

SPEAKER_02: 54:15

Yeah, in fact, do you know what would be a really fucking good episode? Is s one of us says something and then the other one just continually asks why and see where it goes.

SPEAKER_00: 54:28

Yeah. Why?

SPEAKER_02: 54:30

I just think it'd be a good idea. Why? Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_03: 54:34

You can't when someone says when someone says why you can't then answer them. You just undermine your own concept.

SPEAKER_05: 54:41

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_03: 54:43

You've just said you just said someone asked why, and it presumes the question is gonna further elaborate on on the concept, yeah, and then part of that with you, and you said, I just think it'd be good.

SPEAKER_02: 54:56

That is that is but that's exactly what people say, yeah, and the wrong to say that. They should be elaborating. That shouldn't be more that's yeah, and that's why you ask why again.

SPEAKER_00: 55:05

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 55:06

You just because this is us agreeing, I think. I think that's what's happening here. It's just like mirroring, it's exactly the same as mirroring. You just repeat back the last thing they said to it, and and and then don't say anything, and then after the silence gets too awkward, the expound on the previous thing they said and add more detail to it. That's all you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 55:30

Which which reminds me, so someone asked, kind of like they were doing their first uh lesson to prospective UX people, uh, and they were gonna do like a virtual lesson about it, and they asked, What are the key things kind of like you should do, kind of like what have you learned through your career? And one of the things I said was listen to people, but watching what they do is way more important than what they say. And that comes back to the stats, and it's kind of like they, you know, kind of a lot of people go, Oh, you know, we've got this, this amount, people say they want this, and kind of like you know, they don't want bloody orange on the on there, but then kind of when you watch what they do and what they interact is way different. I mean the same.

SPEAKER_02: 56:16

Yeah, um people what people say and what people do are two completely different things, basically, is the principle. You ask someone what coffee they like to drink, and they'll go, Oh, I love very rich, full-bodied coffee, and I like to go to treat myself to a Starbucks or a they come out of the goblin cave and snaffle over the instant coffee. Yeah, when they go shopping, they'll get whatever's the cheapest on the shelf that day that's instant coffee. Yeah, and that's what we'll drink. Have I ever did I have we talked about the Sony radio on an episode yet? I don't think so. So I don't know if this is one for UX files or not, but I could I could do it now. But he didn't do it then. Hello everyone, this is Nick. Just here to say that's the end of part one of the special Christmas episode. Part two will be up next week, probably around Christmas Eve. So check your favourite streaming service for that. Drop in around then. Peace!